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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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Tiller question

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Allthumbs

02-17-2008 07:17:50




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Would using smaller wheels on an N lower the ground speed enough to use a tiller. I don't plan to try this. Just an idle thought.




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Bill(Wis)

02-17-2008 11:54:10




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Allthumbs, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  
Another "idle thought". It's going to snow all day today so I have nothing better to do. If you have level, uniform ground that you intend to rototill, say a garden, why not try to get the tiller up to speed in neutral in the raised position and then, slowly, lower it into the ground, leaving the tractor in neutral. Assuming the tiller tines have a forward rotation, they would tend to push the tractor forward. Use the brakes if necessary to control forward speed. It might take some experimentation to get the depth and speed just right. Has anyone tried this?

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Ernie LI

02-17-2008 11:18:59




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Allthumbs, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  
Just wondering. What would be the optimal ground speed for operating a tiller? It seems that, even with the Howard transmission, the ground speed is a little too fast for a tiller. According to my figuring, with a howard you're still traveling at 14" per second in first gear @ 1500rpm. That's seems faster than what would be considered a creeper speed.



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TheOldHokie

02-17-2008 12:34:40




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 How slow is slow enough? in reply to Ernie LI, 02-17-2008 11:18:59  
A Howard equipped 9N running 540 PTO RPM in first gear is chugging along at .77 MPH. An 8N is a tad faster - .79 MPH. My 4WD Kubby, which is a fine tiller machine, makes .63 MPH @2500 RPM so I think it's about right.

TOH



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Ernie LI

02-17-2008 14:53:03




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 Re: How slow is slow enough? in reply to TheOldHokie, 02-17-2008 12:34:40  
Hi TOH,
We agree on the ground speed of a Howard equipped 8N. .79 mph works out to be about 14" per second. I have no experience running a tiller off the three point even though I have a good working Howard transmission in my 8N. But I have watched a neighbor of mine using a tiller with a JD hydrostatic drive tractor. It looked to me like he was creeping along at about 3 or 4 inches per second at most with the tiller running at full depth. That speed looked about right to me. I guess it all depends on how hard the ground is and how many passes you make.

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TheOldHokie

02-18-2008 05:11:06




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 Re: How slow is slow enough? in reply to Ernie LI, 02-17-2008 14:53:03  
Yep - your math is dead on. The hydro tractors can get asymptotically close to 0 MPH. I've never run a tiller on my Kubby but 1st gear low range is a real snoozer. I walk faster than that behind my 5HP counter-rotating tine tiller ;-)

TOH



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OKDAD

02-17-2008 09:33:26




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Dan, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  
Not usually!



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Ultradog MN

02-17-2008 09:32:36




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Allthumbs, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  
Thumbs,
That's an idea I've had many times when this subject came up.
I finally went out and took some measurements and did a little arithmetic.
Excuse my imperfect measurements on the heights. My tractor is sitting in the snow.

On 11.2x28 tires an N stands about 13" off the ground.
11.2x28 tires are roughly 45 inches tall.

Let's say you could get by with only 6" of ground clearance. So 13" minus 6" = 7"
If you took your 45" tall tires and subtracted 7" TWICE you would need a tire that was 31" tall.

45" x pi = 141" per revolution
31" x pi = 97" per revolution

97"/141" = about 69%

If you could reduce an N's ground speed by 31% I think you would be getting pretty close to being able to use it for tilling.

I'm not sure what kind of tires you would find that were 31" tall but I'm sure there is something that height.
You would have to cut an old pair of centers and weld them into the new rims to bolt them onto your tractor. No big deal.
Use them twice a year for tilling and the rest of the time hide the ugly, cobbled things in the barn.
I believe you could build a set of "tiller tires" for under $100. Compare that to the price of a Howard.
Some folks will say that you need Live PTO to till.
I don't agree.
Keep the tiller slightly off the ground as you start your pass, then lower it as you enter the garden. Raise it slightly when you get to the end and make your turn, etc, etc.
If someone was willing to give this a try, find the centers and correct tires on rims and bring them on over to Minneapolis. I'd do the torch work and welding for free just to see if it would work.
I'm serious.
ultradogmn@yahoo.com

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TheOldHokie

02-17-2008 11:01:20




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Ultradog MN, 02-17-2008 09:32:36  
FWIW the Howard auxiliary transmission was a 3.5:1 reduction ;-)

TOH



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Ultradog MN

02-17-2008 17:55:42




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to TheOldHokie, 02-17-2008 11:01:20  
TOH,
Help me with my arithmetic here.
3.5 to one is a 350% reduction. Yes?
Slightly more than my 31%.
Looks like I'd need to weld those centers onto roller skate tires to get there.
Well, I did keep the bag to put over my head.



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Ultradog MN

02-17-2008 10:40:02




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Ultradog MN, 02-17-2008 09:32:36  
Hobo,
I haven't had any experience with a tiller.
Like you I've found that a plow and a disc work just fine. I actually have a tractor that would run a tiller but I know it would get ruined in our rocky, stoney, clayey soil. I was mostly just trying to find a way to use a tiller on an N is all.

Bob, Glad to see you verify my crude arithmetic.
I agree it would look rediculous.
I did mention hiding the tires when not in use.
Maybe you could hide the whole thing under a tarp while you were running it.
Or at least the operator could run it with a paper bag over his head.

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Hobo,NC

02-17-2008 10:19:28




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Ultradog MN, 02-17-2008 09:32:36  
Shore nuff would throw the angle of the dangle out at the PTO,,, bottom plow and disc werk to good for me to try a mixer,,, I find folks that use the mixer least around here year after year the ground gits so hard the tiller becomes useless,,, their are drawbacks to a tiller,,, one is it grinds up the girt to a powder,,, to thin,,,, packs so tight the plant roots cannot git O2,,, its better for the soil to B little chunky,,, other than the ground looks nice after a mix'in job I don't see a advantage

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Bob

02-17-2008 09:59:30




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 Ultra, in reply to Ultradog MN, 02-17-2008 09:32:36  
Look at this chart... "rolling circumference" is what we are concerned with here. Notice it pretty much agrees with your figure for an 11.2 X 28 tire... (Within an inch!) Trouble is, to get close to the 97" figure you came up with, it takes a 9.5" X 16" ag tire! 245 X 16 pickup truck/SUV tires are about that same size.

It's a GREAT idea, but the tractor sure would look SILLY, and you'd have to mount the rims "reversed" to clear the brake drums!

Third Party Image
Third Party Image

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jon

02-17-2008 08:32:26




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to GA Dave, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  

Allthumbs said: (quoted from post at 11:17:50 02/17/08)
Would using smaller wheels on an N lower the ground speed enough to use a tiller. I don't plan to try this. Just an idle thought.


Smaller wheels would make it go faster wouldn't it?



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jon

02-17-2008 08:31:18




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 Re: Tiller question/Buy A Howard Gear Reduction in reply to Allthumbs, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  

Iowaman said: so what you are saying is if i have a sherman trans then i can use a tiller on my ford???


As explained to me:

A Sherman changes your PTO speed as well as travel speed so it won't work. The Howard goes on the other side of trans so it (somehow) doesn't affect PTO.

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Bill(Wis)

02-17-2008 08:14:25




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Allthumbs, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  
If you've ever seen those "low profile" Fords used to mow along highways you'll see that most of what makes them "low profile" is the size of the tires. Relatively easy to do the math if you can get the right tire circumference numbers. Would be good for working under trees too. (:>)).



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jimNCal

02-17-2008 07:58:35




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 Re: Tiller question/Buy A Howard Gear Reduction in reply to Allthumbs, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  
Simple answer is, yes. BUT, just how small? I would think that getting close to the needed groundspeed reduction would put you on the ground.
I know where you can get a Howard gearset if you want one.



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Iowaman

02-17-2008 08:27:55




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 Re: Tiller question/Buy A Howard Gear Reduction in reply to jimNCal, 02-17-2008 07:58:35  
so what you are saying is if i have a sherman trans then i can use a tiller on my ford???



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jimNCal

02-17-2008 10:44:32




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 Re: Tiller question/Buy A Howard Gear Reduction in reply to Iowaman, 02-17-2008 08:27:55  
Not at all. While the proper Sherman does reduce your groundspeed, it ALSO reduces your PTO speed by the same ratio. No gain there. You see, your PTO is driven by the countershaft in your transmission. So.....any of the 'PRE'-transmission auxiliary gearboxes also change the PTO accordingly. You need a 'POST'-transmission aux gearbox to accomplish 'roto'-tiller groundspeeds.



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John hunt

02-17-2008 07:32:44




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 Re: Tiller question in reply to Allthumbs, 02-17-2008 07:17:50  
NO ... howard tranny only way to do it. if tiller in hard soil but.. if your till compost pile as i do. it will work fine.



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