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8n Start button

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tom_ca

03-06-2008 05:24:22

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1949 8n converted to 12 volt

i just had my starter rebuilt and i reinstalled it, when i push the start button i got nothing no click nothing i tested for current at the solenoid while depressing the start button nothing, Battery is good. so i bypassed the button with a push type switch and it starts up right away but there is sparks at the starter post when the switch is pushed.

my concern is that i do'nt want to fry my rebuilt starter ( $170.oo).

any suggestions would be great P.S electrical work is not my best

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JMOR

03-10-2008 08:10:48

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Hobo,NC, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

tom_ca said: (quoted from post at 09:21:58 03/10/08)
it is not fixed as per the solinoid wiring but the tractor runs fine

the original owner is coming this weekend he did the original 12 volt conversion.

i will let you know how things went.

Got it. Thanks!

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tom_ca

03-10-2008 06:21:58

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to OKDAD, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

it is not fixed as per the solinoid wiring but the tractor runs fine

the original owner is coming this weekend he did the original 12 volt conversion.

i will let you know how things went.

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JMOR

03-09-2008 09:42:17

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

[quote="tom_ca"](quoted from post at 06:13:08 03/09/08) thanks jmor

i have not had time to do anything yet at yhe moment we have been in the middle of a major snowstorm at least 16 inches of snow.

i am just happy the tractor is working i will let you know how it goes.

thanks again to all[/quote

I didn't pickup on that it was fixed. Guess I need to read closer, then I would have stopped posting.

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tom_ca

03-09-2008 03:13:08

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Paul in MN, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

thanks jmor

i have not had time to do anything yet at yhe moment we have been in the middle of a major snowstorm at least 16 inches of snow.

i am just happy the tractor is working i will let you know how it goes.

thanks again to all

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JMOR

03-08-2008 07:26:14

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to r seacat, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

Having seen no response since my post with diagram & chart, I started thinking that maybe I overwhelmed you..... ..... .....so, next.

Here is what I probably should have told you. Hold solenoid in your hand, attach a short jumper wire to the small screw terminal. Next, attach that jumper 's other end to either battery post. Next, touch one of the two big solenoid terminals to the other battery post. Repeat, with the opposite big terminal. With one big terminal you should have heard the solenoid activate, but not with the other. Now re-install in such a way that whichever big terminal made it activate will be connected to the BATTERY and the one that did not make it activate is connected to the starter motor.

HTH

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JMOR

03-07-2008 09:40:29

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to R.G.M., 03-06-2008 05:24:22

tom_ca said: (quoted from post at 11:26:48 03/07/08)
i'm pretty sure the original start button is not working

the starter was rebuilt by a profesional and the solinoid that came of the starter got broke by me wrenching to hard.

could it be that the ground on the starter is not good?

this is where i bought the solinoid.

Ford8N.com Tractor Parts Store

The ground of starter to engine may not be perfect, but apparently good enough to crank it over, by your own words. If you mean ground between solenoid and started motor, the answer is, such a ground is not needed.

OK, it is possible that your replacement solenoid is a "functional" equivalent, but not "physical' equivalent. Follow the instructions in my two charts to determine this and what to do in the event that this is the case.

As for your suspect starter button, use the same test light+ battery combination as in my drawing and connect one the two probes to the terminal on that switch and the other to tractor ground. Pressing the switch should light the lamp. In all these tests, nothing else should be connected to the solenoid or the start button. BE VERY careful that you follow the instructions exactly, or otherwise it will be impossible to know one large solenoid terminal from the other & all will be for naught! Only physical position identifies one large terminal from the other (unless of course you run this series of test). third party image

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tom_ca

03-07-2008 07:26:48

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Tom N MS, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

i'm pretty sure the original start button is not working

the starter was rebuilt by a profesional and the solinoid that came of the starter got broke by me wrenching to hard.

could it be that the ground on the starter is not good?

this is where i bought the solinoid.

Ford8N.com Tractor Parts Store

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JMOR

03-07-2008 06:55:21

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Dukester, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

tom_ca said: (quoted from post at 10:35:08 03/07/08) my ground goes to my neg bat post

does this mean i have neg ground if so what do i do now?

Let us do a little back up and reset here. When you rebuilt the starter, all this unusual behavior started, right? It worked at some point before that, right?

When you rebuilt the starter, did you replace or change ANYTHING else? (Appears that maybe solenoid??)

If yes, then I recommend re-installing the old solenoid! Where did you purchase the new solenoid (if new one was purchased)?

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Dunk

03-07-2008 06:53:02

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to HCooke, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

tom_ca said: (quoted from post at 11:35:08 03/07/08) my ground goes to my neg bat post

does this mean i have neg ground if so what do i do now?

So, (hopefully) we have established that we have a 12v, neg ground system.

We also by Part 8N11450 - STARTER RELAY, 6V , seem to have established that we have the correct solenoid.

(you also have furnished some other information about by-passing some things that does not compute, we will ignore that for the moment)

Now with everything hooked up properly, wire from small post on the solenoid going straight to the starter button, with you sitting on the tractor, and the tractor in neutral....

Press the starter button and nothing happens...

While doing this press the starter button down pretty hard, and try twisting it, while holding it down, and see if that makes a difference.

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tom_ca

03-07-2008 06:35:08

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Ultradog MN, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

my ground goes to my neg bat post

does this mean i have neg ground if so what do i do now?

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Dunk

03-07-2008 04:30:49

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to John hunt, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

tom_ca said: (quoted from post at 08:42:51 03/07/08) thankyou dell

when i check the wire on the start button on tranny it seems loose i will fix this weekend,the button worked before i changed the starter. is there a simple way to tell if it is pos. or neg ground

See which terminal on your battery is connected to the ground of the tractor.

third party image

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tom_ca

03-07-2008 03:42:51

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Ken(Ark), 03-06-2008 05:24:22

thankyou dell

when i check the wire on the start button on tranny it seems loose i will fix this weekend,the button worked before i changed the starter. is there a simple way to tell if it is pos. or neg ground

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tom_ca

03-06-2008 15:23:05

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Dunk, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

as far as i know it is neg ground according to the p.o.

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Dunk

03-06-2008 15:09:06

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

Notice that I didn't label my drawing positive, or negative.

The N tractors can be run with either positive or negative ground.

Either may be correct according to modifications that have been done to the tractor.

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tom_ca

03-06-2008 14:55:15

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Upper Peninsula,MI., 03-06-2008 05:24:22

i checked my wiring again and it is wired as i said.when i first tried the bypass switch i thought to wire the small post on the solinoid to Neg terminal on Bat. this would not start the tractor so i tried the + terminal and she fired up right away. the solinoid is the one i showed you, if it is the wrong one i do'nt know how to find out.

as i said i am not good with electrical but i do know the difference beetween positive and negitive.

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Dell (WA)

03-06-2008 20:40:10

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 14:55:15

Tom..... ...you know why yer starter solenoid worked when you connected yer little middle terminal to yer battery (+)??? 'cuz you gotts POSITIVE GROUND.

Interestingly enuff, yer starter solenoid don't care....positive or negative ground, don't care 6-or-12 volts. Just needs a complete circuit.

As explained, your little middle terminal (that must face the engine block) is GROUNDED by yer BIG trannys shifter pushbutton starter switch.

Yer haffin' wirrin' problems between yer starter solenoid little middle terminal and yer BIG tranny shifter pushbutton. Most likely, the wiring is OPEN and incomplete circuit. tip: push-pull each end of the starter pushbutton wire that goes under yer dashpanel.

While don't discount a BAD tranny shifter pushbutton, Hakeem's Razor sez its yer little wire summwharrs ..... ...Dell

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Dunk

03-06-2008 12:45:02

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

LOL, JMOR..

I played with one too...

third party image

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tom_ca

03-06-2008 11:08:25

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to JohnMD, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

the solinoid is installed as per you're pic

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JMOR

03-06-2008 12:34:20

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 11:08:25

Well, Tom, things just don't add up. If you really have the N tractor type solenoid as in my picture on the left,AND you really wired it as I interpreted your words to say & drawn in here in red, then you simply apply the exact same potential to both ends of the solenoid coil winding which is the same as applying zero voltage across the winding (zero current) and nothing will happen. Need to figure out what solenoid you really have AND how really connected before I can offer any tips. There are many possibilities such as mis-marked parts, "I could have sworn that's the way it was", etc..... .but something isn't as it seems.

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Dunk

03-06-2008 08:25:13

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

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Dunk

03-06-2008 08:15:04

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to jimtrs, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

tom_ca said: (quoted from post at 13:12:11 03/06/08) yes what i wrote is correct i am at work at the moment but i will check my wiring when i get home.

My best guess is that the solenoid is on it backwards.

The small terminal should face the engine, not the outside.

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JMOR

03-06-2008 10:40:09

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Dunk, 03-06-2008 08:15:04

Dunk, I think you are going to win the cupie-doll. Seems that it would result in a cyclic starter (on-off-on-off), but if engine is a good starting one, still fire up.

Probably installed with small terminal out in the open, easy access, easy to see, etc, VS Henry's plan: On the inside next to block, hard to access, barely see, nice "black hole" crevice between block & starter to drop small parts into.
:)

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tom_ca

03-06-2008 08:12:11

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to soundguy, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

yes what i wrote is correct i am at work at the moment but i will check my wiring when i get home.

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JMOR

03-06-2008 08:04:16

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

1.
so i bypassed the button with a push type switch and it starts up right away but

2.
my temp button is connected from small post on solenoid to positive on battery via switch.

Can't be both..... which is it?

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tom_ca

03-06-2008 06:24:34

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Art in Cortez, Co., 03-06-2008 05:24:22

Part 8N11450 - STARTER RELAY, 6V

8N11450---Starter motor relay, 6 volt, 3 post. Mounts on top of starter. For 8N (1948-1952).
this is what i have

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souNdguy

03-06-2008 07:43:43

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 06:24:34

Your reply said this:

"my temp button is connected from small post on solenoid to positive on battery via switch."

If that is how you set it up.. the OEM 8N solenoid will not work.

OEM 8n solenoid needs GROUND at the small terminal.. don't matter positive or negative ground.

Go back and look at your wireing.. what yo are telling us you have done doesn't jive...

soundguy

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tom_ca

03-06-2008 05:59:03

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to Pete-N-Ga, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

my temp button is connected from small post on solenoid to positive on battery via switch.

my solinoid is 6 volt like original

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roger '40 9n

03-06-2008 07:35:29

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:59:03

" button is connected from small post on solenoid to positive on battery "

There is your problem. With a 12 volt conversion you have a negative ground. The small post on the solenoid needs to be grounded to work. You need to hook it up to the negative post on your battery (through a switch). Of course you will loose your neutral safety feature if you do not use the transmission mounted starter button.

Roger

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souNdguy

03-06-2008 06:07:53

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:59:03

If you are saying that your temp switch connects your solenoids small terminal to battery positive 9 hot ). then the solenoid is CERTAINTLY NOT like original.

OEM 8n solenoids need GROUND on that small terminal.

soundguy

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Bob

03-06-2008 06:04:29

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:59:03

With your description of your auxillary switch hookup, and ASSUMING this 12-Volt conversion is (-) ground, you have the WRONG starter solenoid... it's INTERNAL connections are wrong.

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Bob

03-06-2008 05:41:43

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

The sparks at the starter post indicate either a loose connection there (tighten the nut), or a short at the terminal stud due to damaged or incirrectly installed insulaating washers.

For the tranny-top neutral-safety starting switch to work, the solenoid MUST be of the original type, with one side of it's coil connected to the stud that's always "HOT", the one where the battery cable connects.

Third Party Image

When you are using your auxillary push button, where are you connecting it's leads... one to the starter solenoid,s little terminal and one to the large "HOT" stud? IF SO, it's the wrong type of solenoid for use with the tractor's original starter button.

Otherwise, it seems like the tranny-top starter switch may have failed.

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souNdguy

03-06-2008 05:38:29

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Re: 8n Start button in reply to tom_ca, 03-06-2008 05:24:22

All yer big 8n thumb starter button does is ground the small post ont he solenoid. Thus, as a test, put tractor in neutral, and block clutch, and use a screwdriver to ground that small post to the frame.. if starter spins.. but won't do it with the thumb button, then the wire to the thumb button is bad.. or the button itself is bad... not an expensive repair.. but you haveta pull the tranny top cover to get it off.. not bad.. just have a gasket or gasket go on hand to reseal.. and when you pull the trans cover.. make sure you are in neutral so it is easy to line back up.. and lift slowly.. there are springs holding detent balls and you don't want the one on the rear of the cover to fly..

Sparks at the starter stud = bad connection..

soundguy

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