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1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized

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Randy Fountain

03-14-2008 20:54:02




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So it's seized...

It's been in a barn - in north Florida...for XX years. I guess it's to be expected... I marked the crankshaft pulley and block so I can tell if the crank turns even a few microns.

I put a total of 8 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil(MMO) in each cylinder in the last two days. I've "rocked" the tractor several times while in both 4th and Reverse gears. There is one piston that is near TDC - I can tell because the MMO overflowed out of the plug hole when I added the second 4 ounces. I think I smell a hint of MMO's "odor" on the dipstick - so I'm thinking that indicates at least one cylinder has let the MMO all the way past.
I had originally planned to part this tractor out if it had a major problem but I've fallen for the 8n...So if it comes to it - I'll prolly order a rebuild kit....I'd really like to put it off for about 18 months so I could do it "right"...Now isn't a good financial time for me to properly rebuild the engine :)

So that's the background - here are my questions:

- How long do I let the MMO soak while doing the daily "rock" until I give up and start pricing rebuild kits?
- I don't have a hand-crank(yet) - Is there another way I can "influence" the crank with out further disassembly?
- http://www.seizedengine.com/ sure looks like a gimmick to me but hell - MMO sounds like snake-oil too :) Thoughts?
- Some of the kits I see include new valves - how expensive is it to get the valves and seats set up for each other?
- How do I choose between an all metal head-gasget and a partially soft one? They cost the same.
-I've rebuilt carbs, starters, alternators and such on cars and motorcycles. I've never rebuilt an engine. Is the 8n engine a good one to start with?

As always - thank you for your support.

-Randy

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GunPilot

03-17-2008 13:05:30




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  

Dell (WA) said: (quoted from post at 22:12:59 03/14/08) Randy..... .you write..... ."I don't have a hand-crank(yet) - Is there another way I can "influence" the crank with out further disassembly?"..... .the 10-28 reartire is almost 2-feet of leverage multiplied by 6.66 to 1 diffy gear. How much leverage is yer 12-inch front crank handle??? Doin' yer daily rocker fer about 1-week zatza'bout rite. Don't use reverse.


Not that it matters, but that 2-foot leverage is actually UN-multiplied by the rear gear. So that 6.66:1 is working against you here. So, your 24-inch advantage is reduced to 3 inches, (24/6.66), so a foot-long hand crank may be OK as well. :shock:

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Floridaboy

03-17-2008 04:56:55




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
Where are you in North Florida? Our place is just west of Tallahassee.



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Hobo,NC

03-15-2008 17:22:31




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
Soak the cylinders in ATF mixed wif diesel for a week or so, remove the starter and pry on the flywheel ring gear teeth, b genital, its the best way I know to break it loose



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Dan

03-15-2008 06:05:33




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
I know this is probably well know - but I just learned about it last week. THE BEST penetrating oil is a 50/50 mixture of ATF and Acetone. It was shown to beat Kroil, PB Blaster, Liquid wrench, WD-40 by a WIDE margin - and much cheaper to boot. I bought a pump oiler and plan on using this mixture from now on.

The fact you smell MMO on the dipstick and the oil is sloshing out the spark plug holes when you rock the tractor in gear usually means the pistons are moving. I just have a thought - maybe the engine is not stuck, maybe the clutch is just stuck to the flywheel which is very common on N's that sit awhile...

Dan

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Randall Fountain

03-15-2008 15:27:22




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Dan, 03-15-2008 06:05:33  
I should have mentioned - the clutch works fine...I can roll it in gear w/the clutch depressed. The MMO doesn't slosh out - the cylinder is just full of it.
The crankshaft hasn't moved at all...

Since I've got some ATF around the shop I think I'll top off all the cylinders with that so it might get to the valves/cam too.



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Gaspump

03-15-2008 07:31:19




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Dan, 03-15-2008 06:05:33  
Dan, that acetone mix sure scares the heck out of me. I was in large fiberglass boatbuilding for years and was never so relieved as when in the 1980's a water soluable substitute came along. Acetone is extremely volatile and a real health hazard too. Likely it would work well as a penetrating agent for rust but please no acetone. Long ago I posted 50/50 ATF & kerosene which wins no safety prize either as the ATF should be used carefully too.

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Bruce (VA)

03-15-2008 05:40:16




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
Keep adding ATF or MMO in each cylinder for at least a week or so. Pull both valve covers & soak everything w/ MMO or ATF. Remove the 15/16 hex nut to the right of the water pump. This is where your oil gallery is for the valves/lifters is. Don't lose the little spring under the nut. Use an oil squirt can to put about a cup of oil in here. Replace the spring & nut. Wait at least 2 or 3 days before you do anything, then try & hand crank the engine, or a pry bar on the flywheel or rocking the rear tires. (w/o spark plugs) If it does not turn by hand, repeat everything you just did, ie, more MMO or ATF. Once you get it to turn by hand, then change all the fluids (check tips 3 & 4 for info on the tranny/pump/rear end fluid change)

Fluids include oil & filter, oil in the air cleaner, and 50/50 water & antifreeze. Grease all fittings. Replace the points, plugs, condenser, rotor & cap. If the wires are cracked & frayed, replace them as well, or you will spend days trying to find that one short. Clean all connections bright & shiny. Clean the fuel screens in the carb & sediment bowl. Spray the carb good w/ carb cleaner. (Some people can get a carb to work like this after setting for years. Some people win the lottery. I have never got away w/ an old carb working; plan on a rebuild). Flush the gas tank w/ MMO. Add at least two gallons of fresh gas & make sure you have a good flow by removing the bolt at the bottom of the carb. Keep some starting fluid handy.

Check every orifice (tail pipe, breather, etc) for rodent nests.

Do not order any parts for a rebuild until you get inside of the engine. It might need bearings & you need to mic the crank for that. Same w/ valves; it might not need them.

I prefer the soft head gasket per the recommendation of a factory trained Ford tractor mechanic is older than me!

Once you get it running, just let it idle for a 1/2 hour or so. Good luck & check back!

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Ultradog MN

03-15-2008 05:22:30




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
I used to prefer MMO but after reading Old's posts about using ATF instead I would go that route. ATF is a lot cheaper than MMO
and he says to fill the cylinder till it overflows and gets into the valves to unstick them too.
I would put the oil in and wait a week before even trying to rock the tractor with the rear wheels like Dell says.
Don't crowd it too hard as you can damage things - ie bend rods, break pistons etc.
Patience is the key. I've got more time than money and would let it soak for up to a month - adding more oil occasionally, before giving up on the ATF/MMO and tearing it down.
If/when you get it unstuck I would clean the carb, check the points and see if you're getting spark to the plugs. Then add gas and a battery and see if it will start. I would pull it with another vehicle if need be as it will have reduced compression due to stuck rings. If you can get it started it will smoke like the dickens till all the MMO burns out. And it may keep on smoking til the rings free up in the grooves. But I've heard of several folks who just worked the snot out of them for a month and saw the smoking stop as the rings freed up. Add some Sea Foam both to the gas and new oil. Don't be in a hurry. You might have a good runner there that can give years of useful work without doing a thing to it.
Keep us posted on your progress.

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Kirk-NJ

03-15-2008 03:37:51




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
Randy,
If you do a search in this forum frozen engine. #39 will come up 3/30/06 RE 8N froze-up. By Nolan. This info may help in freeing up your engine. Maybe one of the other guys could tell you how to get to this post eazier. Good Luck, Kirk



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Sean (TX)

03-15-2008 02:50:38




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Shane Cota, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
Pull the starter and use a pry bar on the ring gear...Worked for me.



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Mark Pearce

03-14-2008 23:11:23




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
Randy, Oh please don't part this one out. For one, your a lucky man to find good sheetmetal with no rust holes. As for your question this being your first engine to possibly rebuild. I have to tell you, I have rebuilt car engines and they were and are a pain. These N tractors are pure pleasure to work on because they are so darn simple. As a hobby I'd rank workin on my N right up there with Fishin or just boat riding mixed with some wildlife photagraphy. This is how easy they are to tinker on. Just remember to take your time and keep in touch with the guys here on the forum.

Mark....

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Lance in Brenham, TX

03-14-2008 22:57:42




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
I usually use ATF to "unstick" seized engines. I would fill up the cylinders, and wait a week before I even try to rock it through the gears or turn the crankshaft...



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Jimmyjack

03-14-2008 21:23:54




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
I prefer the soft gasket only because I had a problem with the metal one. Many people dont have the problem your call.



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Dell (WA)

03-14-2008 21:12:59




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 Re: 1950 8N (aka - Barn Treasure) - Seized in reply to Randy Fountain, 03-14-2008 20:54:02  
Randy..... .you write..... ."I don't have a hand-crank(yet) - Is there another way I can "influence" the crank with out further disassembly?"..... .the 10-28 reartire is almost 2-feet of leverage multiplied by 6.66 to 1 diffy gear. How much leverage is yer 12-inch front crank handle??? Doin' yer daily rocker fer about 1-week zatza'bout rite. Don't use reverse.

Iff'n you have 1-piston near TDC, then you'll have nutter'un near TDC too. 1&4 are same and 2&3 are same.

Yer N-Ford engine is good beginners engineering overhaul teacher. The only thing "weird" is flatheat valves and dry-sleeve engine. Remember, they was built to be maintained by horse farmers, you can operate a computer..... ..Dell

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