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Battery cables

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Phil-IA

02-09-2000 04:40:35

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What is the size, diameter, of the battery cables on the 8N? Are they 1/0?

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Glenn Ma

02-10-2000 14:48:18

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Re: battery cables in reply to Phil-IA, 02-09-2000 04:40:35

And all you did was ask a simple (you thought) question. I love this board!!

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norm(wy) Basic DC Elect

02-09-2000 18:16:39

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Re: battery cables in reply to Phil-IA, 02-09-2000 04:40:35

In the DC or low frequency case the resistance of any conductor is directly proportional to its length and inversely proportional to its cross sectional area. This means that if you double the length of the conductor you will double its resistance and if you double its cross sectional area you will halve the resistance. The AWG wire size is determined by the cross sectional area of the conductor. For any given size and a fixed length of cable it doesn�t matter one bit whether you get the cross sectional area using one conductor, ten strands or 100 strands. The resistance is determined by the area of the cable which will be the same regardless of the number of conductors in the cable, stranded or solid. The big difference is flexibility. The old stranded ground strap was used because of tight bends going from battery to chassis as directly as possible and the strap was uninsulated and very easy to use. The run from battery to starter was typically a fairly straight run and the cable had to be insulated, so they used a stranded cable. Especially when the 12v systems came about the voltage was doubled and the current was halved so battery cables were reduced in size, were more flexible and they started using the same materials for the ground and hot cables in the interest of economics. I would a lot rather be connecting a stranded 2/0 cable than a solid one any time.
This discussion has nothing to do with high frequencies, skin effect etc. but at least the 8N I have doesn�t operate anything in the megahertz range.
I hope that somewhere among all the posts everyone comes to a conclusion they are comfortable with. FWIW 8^)

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John C. (IN)

02-09-2000 08:08:00

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Re: battery cables in reply to Phil-IA, 02-09-2000 04:40:35

I've found 1 guage battery cables at my local WalMart.

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Gaspump

02-09-2000 06:58:59

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Re: battery cables in reply to Phil-IA, 02-09-2000 04:40:35

If you are going with the 6-volt system be certain that you use 2/0 cables. Cables ain't what they used to be so you need to get all you can. You can get 2/0 at most parts stores, even at Wally-World. I buy lug ends, cut cables to original length, crimp and solder the lugs on. It will improve starter performance.

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ZANE

02-09-2000 06:08:03

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Re: battery cables in reply to Phil-IA, 02-09-2000 04:40:35

Not only is the size of the wire important but so are the number of individual wires in the conductor.The more the number of wires in the cluster of the conductor the better it's ability to carry current. If the #1 wire is say a single wire it will not carry nearly as much as the #1 wire that has 100 strands in the conductor.
I would have to go hunt it up in my electronics lessons from when I studied electronics but I distinctly remember the theory. It has something to do with the size of the wire and the phenomenom of magnetic fields with multiple wires in a conductor. Thus if you have a #1 wire from a parts store with only about 8 strands it will not be nearly as effecient as the same size wire with 48 starnds of wite in it.

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Don (8N143633)

02-09-2000 11:04:24

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Re: Re: battery cables in reply to ZANE, 02-09-2000 06:08:03

The resistance of an electrical conductor and hence its current carrying capabilities at a given voltage is based on cross-sectional area (circular mils for wires). A bundled cluster of copper strands has less area ( due to spaces in between) than the exact same diameter solid conductor. For this reason, it is made slightly larger in diameter than its solid counter- part at any given wire size (AWG) to have the same ampacity. The main reason for stranded wire as another person mentioned is for flexibility.

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Phil (NJ)

02-09-2000 12:45:39

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Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Don (8N143633), 02-09-2000 11:04:24

Don, The AWG rating is indeed defined by area circular Mils, and all cables Rated # 1 "should be" equal regardless of form, but diameter itself can be misleading. ie AWG #1 dia .2893 cir/mil 83,680. resistance .1239 per 1000ft.

AWG #7 dia .1443 cir/mil 20,820.
resistance .4982 per 1000ft.

It is much easier to create a cable with Multi-core(low loss)that far exceed the rating of single core.

JMHO

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Claus

02-09-2000 11:21:55

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Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Don (8N143633), 02-09-2000 11:04:24

Good post Don.. I was not going to get into this..
Happy Motoring
Claus

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Jim(Ky)

02-09-2000 10:51:09

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Re: Re: battery cables in reply to ZANE, 02-09-2000 06:08:03

Zane, you era right. Current actually flows on the outside of the wire. I remember that from electronics school I attended about 30 years ago.I know vacuum tubes well. Wish I had stayed with it. Hate working inside.

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EricG.NH

02-09-2000 10:25:42

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Re: Re: battery cables in reply to ZANE, 02-09-2000 06:08:03

I humbly disagree.
The maximum current carrying capability of a solid wire is about twice that of a stranded wire of the same diameter. The stranded wire is just easier to work with. Ask your friendly electrician if you like, and he'll tell you the same thing.
Eric

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Gaspump

02-09-2000 12:43:18

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Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to EricG.NH, 02-09-2000 10:25:42

All this about conductivity is for the main part mostly correct, However it is a great dose of overkill for the N-Series. I have used 2/0 welding cable but obtaining and attaching ends is difficult and just not worth the effort. Just stick to off the shelf 2/0 cables and they will beat any N requirement, unless you have access to better cables, dont mind the cost and don't mind orange in place of the red cable.

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Don (8NI43633)

02-09-2000 13:50:31

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Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Gaspump, 02-09-2000 12:43:18

Hello! Methinks someone finally answered the original question. Good post Gaspump. But are you sure I can't have red ones? They sure would be purdy. May your tractor outlive you.

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Chris (CA)

02-09-2000 07:49:06

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Re: Re: battery cables in reply to ZANE, 02-09-2000 06:08:03

remembering my electric shop class back in high school 40 yrs ago or so I stll remember the part about electrons flowing on the surface of the copper hence more strands more surface more currant is passed along the cable..

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Larry 8N75381

02-09-2000 04:58:05

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Re: battery cables in reply to Phil-IA, 02-09-2000 04:40:35

I am pretty sure that the largest cables you can find (like at an auto store) are #2 wire. Which is good enough, IF you keep the battery posts clean and free of corrosion. Otherwise, even doing something like going to an 8V battery won't help.

I bought an 8N last year that the previous owner had put an 8V battery in. It still was hard to start. Turned out that one of the battery clamps had corroded so much that you couldn't keep it tight. I replaced the cable (with #2 wire) and put in 6V battery. Starts fine now!

I should add that the original ground cable was a bare flat braided cable. I got mine at Tractor Supply Corp., and Central Tractor also have them. Don't see them in auto stores, except on a rare occasion. AND, of course, the flat cable should be #2 wire equalivant.

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Claus

02-09-2000 05:56:24

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Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Larry 8N75381, 02-09-2000 04:58:05

Way to go Larry. I am glad to see that you got rid of the 8 volt battery. It amazes me how many peoople will trade a small problem for a larger one and then try to cure the larger one and then of course now they have to mess with the voltage regulator and screw that up and of course, the coil gets another amp...Well what the heck, coils are cheap.. ad nauseum..
Happy Motoring
Claus

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steve

02-09-2000 07:07:16

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Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Claus, 02-09-2000 05:56:24

is there an advantage to a bare flat grd. cable as opposed to a round coated one???
steve

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EricG.NH

02-09-2000 10:38:08

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Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to steve, 02-09-2000 07:07:16

I believe a solid wire has less dc resistance than an equivalent braided cable and therefore would have less voltage drop across it. More important with 6V systems because any unwanted resistance in the ignition circuit, which this cable is in, causes a weaker spark. The gnd cable doesn't need to be coated since it's a chassis connection, unlike the starter connection.
YIS,
Eric

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Phil (NJ)

02-09-2000 07:53:55

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Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to steve, 02-09-2000 07:07:16

Steve, YES! Flat is better. Electricity is a surface critter.

JMHO

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STUMP PULLER

02-09-2000 08:05:24

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Phil (NJ), 02-09-2000 07:53:55

THIS IS DC CURRENT AND THERE IS NO SKIN EFFECT.
SKIN EFFECT OCCURS ONLY AT HIGH FREQUENCIES. WHAT WILL DETERMINE THE QUALITY OF THE CABLE IS THE DIAMETER OF THE WIRE AND THUS ITS RESISTANCE.

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Phil (NJ)

02-09-2000 09:35:39

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to STUMP PULLER, 02-09-2000 08:05:24

Stump, Wrong! All conductors have resistance, inductance, and capacitance. The square of the surface area is inversely proportional to the resistance. It is advantages in impedance matching applications to use solid core where the diameter of the wire vs. diameter of dielectric determine impedance, but resistance and Impedance are not the same.

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norm(wy)

02-10-2000 08:02:56

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Phil (NJ), 02-09-2000 09:35:39

Phil---You are apparently misinformed. When you say "The square of the surface area is inversely proportional to the resistance." You are confusing area and radius or diameter. AREA is inversely proportional to resistance not area squared. Also when you start talking about impedance, it is defined as a quadrature combination of resistance and reactance where reactance is a function of frequency and is valid and defined ONLY in the pure sinusoidal case. Reactance is meaningless in any other situation. In the DC case impedance matching is simply resistance matching. FYI

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STUMP PULLER

02-09-2000 18:18:08

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to Phil (NJ), 02-09-2000 09:35:39

HOW DO YOU MEASURE IMPEDANCE AT DC. YOU DONT. AT DC THE DC RESISTANCE IS THE RESISTANCE OF THE WIRE. AT DC THE IMPEDANCE IS R + J0.0

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Phil (NJ)

02-10-2000 07:00:48

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: battery cables in reply to STUMP PULLER, 02-09-2000 18:18:08

Stump, Now you enter the world of the �Wookie�s�, these are the analog engineers that wear pointy hats and dance around boiling cauldrons. They may say that DC is a fiction of the imagination and that all current dependent loads are defined by wave theory.

Food for thought

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