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Educate me please....

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Pete Cowart

05-20-2008 20:08:37




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I only have a 52' 8N but a post on another topic made me curious. It was stated that point gap on a front mount dist. was .015 while a side mount was .025. Why? Both engines are 4 cylinder, each cylinder "fires" 90 degrees apart. I would think almost all inline 4 cylinder gas engines would have the same point gap specs. From way back when I remember that "point gap" affects ignition timing. My shop manual on "CD" lists .015 as the spec and I'm sure thats what I've been running. To change it to .025 would affect the timing and I'm not sure how it would run. Is the biggest difference the fact that someone said the spark on the front mount is "weak"? With the wider gap the points are open longer (dwell) and closed a shorter time. When the points are closed isn't this when the coil primary side stores it's charge? But anyway, why the wider gap? I forget, it's been a long time. Todays cars have a coil per cylinder and they are turned on and off by an electronic control module and that's what I work on everyday.
thanks for your patience,

Pete

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Pete Cowart

05-20-2008 22:10:42




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 Re: Thanks JAMOR that was a great explanation! in reply to OK BILL, 05-20-2008 20:08:37  
Well, well. I created a post where somebody learned something. I'd say that's what this forum is all about us helping each other. Mixed in of course with the occassional "witty anecdote" :lol:
Pete



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JMOR

05-20-2008 21:59:42




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 Re: Thanks JAMOR that was a great explanation! in reply to soundguy, 05-20-2008 20:08:37  
I try.

Hate for 66 years of learning to go totally to waste!



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JMOR

05-20-2008 21:42:13




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 Re: Educate me please.... in reply to Dell (WA), 05-20-2008 20:08:37  

Pete Cowart said: (quoted from post at 23:08:37 05/20/08) I only have a 52' 8N but a post on another topic made me curious. It was stated that point gap on a front mount dist. was .015 while a side mount was .025. Why? Both engines are 4 cylinder, each cylinder "fires" 90 degrees apart. I would think almost all inline 4 cylinder gas engines would have the same point gap specs. From way back when I remember that "point gap" affects ignition timing. My shop manual on "CD" lists .015 as the spec and I'm sure thats what I've been running. To change it to .025 would affect the timing and I'm not sure how it would run. Is the biggest difference the fact that someone said the spark on the front mount is "weak"? With the wider gap the points are open longer (dwell) and closed a shorter time. When the points are closed isn't this when the coil primary side stores it's charge? But anyway, why the wider gap? I forget, it's been a long time. Todays cars have a coil per cylinder and they are turned on and off by an electronic control module and that's what I work on everyday.
thanks for your patience,

Pete


For maximum 'charging' of coil, you want the longest dwell (period that points are closed) possible. There are limitations in gaining that dwell time by decreasing point gap, because when the gap gets too small, the stored energy in the coil is released in the arcing of the points (to the detriment of point life) rather than into the HV to the spark plug. Other considerations are things such as the contour of the breaker point cam...if it is too radical in trying to obtain maximum dwell, then the acceleration ramp is such that control is lost & points don't simply open & close but bounce open/close/open/close, etc. To control this spring tension becomes so high that wear is a problem. So, it becomes one trade off after another to arrive at "the best we can do with what we have to work with"...enter electronic ignition.

Your other question regarding 0.015 vs 0.025. That is a geometry problem. In either the front mount or the side mount, the cam itself provides an amount of "lift", being the difference between the flat and the peak of the cam. In the front mount this translates directly to the point contacts, since the length of the point arm from pivot to rubbing block is equal to the length from the pivot to the point contacts. However, in the side mount there is a multiplier effect, because the length from the pivot to the ribbing block and the length from the pivot to the point contacts are NOT equal. In fact the point contacts open 1.6 times more than the rubbing block moves. So, this geometry makes it much easier to obtain a large point opening (gap), while retaining a reasonable cam profile, with respect to acceleration, bounce, wear, etc. The quicker you open the gap and the wider you open it (within limits) , the less stored energy you waste in burning up contacts & the more you send to the spark plugs.

This is evolution in design at work. That's my story on why 0.015 vs 0.025.

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PaulF

05-20-2008 21:57:18




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 Thanks JAMOR that was a great explanation! in reply to JMOR, 05-20-2008 21:42:13  
JAMOR, Thanks!!!That made perfect sense!
PaulF



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Pete Cowart

05-20-2008 21:17:39




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 Re: Educate me please.... in reply to Ken Crisman, 05-20-2008 20:08:37  
I see said the blind man to his deaf wife. I would never have thought about them changing the profile of the "ramps" that open and close the points. Nothing but open close, open close. Guess maybe they were "slamming" shut and that was bad, increased wear etc.

thanks,

Pete

Guess we'll chalk that up to progress, Must have been something about the front mount "lobes" they didn't like.

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souNdguy

05-20-2008 21:29:44




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 Re: Educate me please.... in reply to Pete Cowart, 05-20-2008 21:17:39  
Remember.. the front mounts were first.. thent he side mounts.. and keep in mind. the rubbing block rides the cam.. ther eis no free-fall slam shut.. the rubbing block rides the cam..

soundguy



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Bob

05-20-2008 21:04:56




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 Re: Educate me please.... in reply to Pete Cowart, 05-20-2008 20:08:37  
Simple answer... the profile of the cams (that the points run on) is different between the two distributors.



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souNdguy

05-20-2008 20:16:21




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 Re: Educate me please.... in reply to Pete Cowart, 05-20-2008 20:08:37  
.015 for front mount
.025 for side mount.

different manufacturers have different specs... for instance.. most allice chalmers units use .02

running too close a gap can lead to burnt points. early shop manuals had missprints.

.025 on ford sidemount 8n distribuitor.

soundguy



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