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12 volt charging system on an 8N

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Ron Tompkins

06-15-1999 18:39:38




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Hi, My name is Ron Tompkins and I live in LaGrangeville, New York. I have a friend who asked me to look at their 8n that someone else had started to work on then gave up.
It appears the original 6 volt generator had been replaced with a 12 volt single terminal alternator but no wires had been connected back to it. According to my friend, the person who last worked on the tractor, replaced an alternator for an alternator but was afraid to wire it back up. I started the tractor the other day (without the alternator wired up) and read no voltage between the single terminal of the alternator to frame.
My questions are these:

How can I be sure this tractor has already been converted to a 12 volt charging system? (should there be a step down transformer or regulator somewhere)

Can a single terminal alternator be put a tractor that uses positive grounding?

Any help that you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Ron Tompkins

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Jim WI

06-16-1999 10:21:46




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 Re: 12 volt charging system on an 8N in reply to Ron Tompkins, 06-15-1999 18:39:38  
There is an alternator available in a 6-volt positive ground configuration. It's a conversion of an early Delco model. However, it's not likely that this is what you have.

Dell's answers are correct about 12v conversions.



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Dell (WA)

06-15-1999 23:06:07




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 Re: 12 volt charging system on an 8N in reply to Ron Tompkins, 06-15-1999 18:39:38  
Ron..... ..If you can understand simple wiring diagrams, here is a link to one that works. Thanks to Neil.

There is no transformers converting 6 volts to 12 volts and visa versa 12 volts to 6 volts. Transformers only work on AC (alternating current) not batterys which are called DC (direct current).

Alternators require negative grounded 12 volt batterys, its the built-in transistor regulators and diodes, solid state stuff.

If your conversion was done correctly, you should have a 12 volt negative ground battery. Remember the 8N originally had a 6 volt positive grounded battery. You have to keep your head on straight.

"Can a single terminal alternator be put a tractor that uses positive grounding?" NO....because the single terminal is positive 12 volts and the alternator case is the negative 12 volts terminal which is connected thru the engine block to the battery negative terminal by the ground cable. If you were to connect the alternator single terminal to ground, you would short out the alternator and burn it up and you would have to buy a new alternator. SO DON'T GROUND THE ALTERNATOR's SINGLE TERMINAL!!!

Generally, the alternator's single terminal is wired thru the amp meter to the battery positive connection. It is generally connected down at the starter battery terminal for convience. But you can hook it anywhere you find convient, direct to the battery....or....

You need to understand alternator wiring schemes. The big heavy screw stud is 12 volt power out.

There are two other connections, P1 which needs a switched 12 volt source to keep the alternator from feeding back into the ignition coil so you can turn the engine off. That is what the dash light/marker light does. It also acts as an "idiot light" just like in your car when the light lights up, the alternator is not charging/engine not running. Some times the convertor uses a diode (which is a 1-way switch) to disconnect the alternator from the ignition coil. Same effect, same reason. I personally like using an idiot light scheme because unless you are an electonics engineer, its hard to determine which way to connect the diode to make it work correctly.

P2 is called the battery "sense" line that electrically tells the voltage regulator what the battery voltage is, kind of neat if your battery is in the trunk of your tractor and you have a voltage loss from the long wires, but in this case the simplest thing, since the battery is so close, is to directly connect the "sense" to the alternator output (which goes to the battery anyway)

There is an optional voltage regulator that can be installed inside the alternator that does away with the need for any other external wiring to P1 and P2....BUT....you have to jazz your engine to high RPM's to get the alternator to start charging. Thats ok for automobile engines that rev to 5000+ RPM, but your N-Tractor engine is redlined at 2200 RPM and idles at 400 RPM. I really don't like to jazz my engine that much, and altho just 1 wire seem like a neat way to go, it is not my favorite or recommended way to convert. But you can if you want to.

The best part about converting to 12 volts is the way the starter winds up, and the engine starts so much eazier. BTW starter don't care positive ground, negative ground, still turns the engine the correct direction.

Since you were able to start your engine, will assume therefore that the ignition system has been converted correctly and I therefore will not discuss the various ways that problem is delt with.

Sorry for the lenght of the post, but trying to explain the 12 volt conversion requires some understanding of electricity. Its rather simple and straight foward if you do and if you don't, you can be in over your head. So if in doubt, draw a picture of where all the wires go and understand why they go where they go, keeps your head on straight and think about what you are trying to do.

Hope this helps..... ....Dell

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Ron Tompkins

06-16-1999 05:47:21




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 Re: Re: 12 volt charging system on an 8N in reply to Dell (WA), 06-15-1999 23:06:07  
Dell,

Thanks for the quick and informative response. I kind of figured there was no way of reversing the polarity of the single wire alternator. Seeing as there still is a 6 volt positive grounded battery, it would appear that no 12 volt conversion had been done to this tractor. So, if the information that was given me (there was an alternator on the tractor before this one) is true, then it must have been a 6 volt alternator??

Is there an easy and inexpensive way out of this??
(I believe they're going to sell the tractor after)

Thanks again..... Ron

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Dell (WA)

06-16-1999 07:29:57




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt charging system on an 8N in reply to Ron Tompkins, 06-16-1999 05:47:21  
Ron..... ...yes, the eazy way out of this is..... are you ready for this?..... finish the conversion to 12 volts. ..... Piece of cake.....

1. find out if the present alternator is 6 or 12 volts, take it into a shop for a check. Most alternators are 12 volts. You can have a "custom modified" 6 volt alternator made, but I recommend against it for several reasons. 1) Cost. 2) You loose the rational for converting to 12 volts, eazier starting.

2. Most 12 volt conversions use the Delco 10-SI or 17-SI alternator. Most junkyards have barrels of alternators they will be happy to sell you at about $15 ea. You don't need to go buy new, most yards will test them for you first.

3. To me, the most difficult part of a 12 volt conversion, is the alternator mounting bracket. Since you already have an alternator on the tractor, this implys that you must have a "bracket". .....piece of cake.....

4. You will need to buy a new 12 volt battery, trade in your old battery and get it out of the way.

5. Wire up the new alternator per "Neil's wiring diagram" and my previous instructions, and you're half way there.

6. Now the difficult part, the ignition system. Simplest way, is to buy a 12 volt coil that does not require an external ballast resistor. You get the benifits of modern, up to date, known working unit, that throws a 1/2" blue spark.

Now watch out, the parts guys sometime times don't know what they are selling, without you giving them a part number. A good parts guy can open up the master catalog and find you a 12 volt no resistor coil.

OTHERWIZE you have to start mucking around with finding the correct ballast resistor to use with the original 6 volt coil on 12 volts.

7. If your tractor has headlights, you will have to change them to 12 volts types. .....piece of cake.....

If you have to have "specific" part numbers or other technical data, E-mail me at "goliss@mindspring.com", I will have to look them up for you as I don't have them "memorized". As I keep telling my wife, I am not a mind reader or parts person. (grin)

Hope this helps..... ...Dell

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Nolan

06-16-1999 09:11:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 volt charging system on an 8N in reply to Dell (WA), 06-16-1999 07:29:57  
Next time you look them up why not send them to Bob G to include in his FAQ on upgrading to 12 volts? It would be a nice addition.



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