Live Hydraulics, lets get cracking!

This is my vision of what I want to do and achieve:

1. The loader is going to be carefully cut up. I will build a new frame that sits lower on the tractor, with the primary purpose of simply holding the pump up front. The oil and resevour will be the 5 gallons living in the transmission.

2. I want to plumb that front pump into the broken up pump body so that I can use the existing quandrant control. I want to retain position and draft control with the live pump.

3. If #2 cannot be achieved for some reason, I at least want to be able to mount and use the loaders spool valves to obtain lift and drop capability of the three point hitch in the same manner as the loader itself originally operated.

I've ordered the 1997 back issues of the N-newsletter that contains an article on live hydraulics, and I think I should have at home the 1998 issue that also has a copy. I have also ordered the book on understanding hydraulics, something I'm not terribly well versed on.

I'm currently trying to figure out if I can make a live vane type pump (think that's what the Wagners unit is) work with the funky inlet and exhaust control valve of the 8N pump body. Not sure what happens to a pump like this when you cut off supply oil though. I'm also not sure about problems with pressure, as I don't know what kind of pressure the Wagner pump works at. I do have a 5,000 psi gauge in the basement purchased just for this project btw.

So, those of you tinkers and such, I'm looking for input on this notion. If you've done it, please tell me how. If you think you see how to do it, please tell me how. And as this project progresses, if you see mistakes and problems, please point them out.

How can I get a front mounted live pump to work with the 8N lift controls?

Just a thought but you should be able to start the pump with a limit switch that closes when the control valve open, ie the control rod is against the pump body. The pump would turn off when the lift is at the position required by quadrant control lever and then vent as it does now.

BTW anybody got an old jeep sitting in the weeds they want to get rid of?

I'm pondering a little bit about using an electric pump myself. I've got a brand new one sitting in the basement, 12v. Hadn't thought about the salvage yard tommy lifts though.

Another thing along these lines is the use of an AC clutch on the pump. They're strong! The commercial watermen around here use them for their lifts and for hydraulic controls. It could be possible to rig the system up such that a pressure sensing switch engages and disengages the clutch.

I've learned that blinding a hydraulic pump is bad. Ok. I've also spent some time staring at the NAA hydraulics on>Link

I have an idea for playing with the pump body. Didn't have the time to study my busted spare much last night, but I have an idea. I think the intake is open to the back and draws fluid from there. I could weld and thread it up so that the live hydraulic pump sends fluid directly into that. This would give me positive flow right into the intake, and would blow my pump up. So pressure relief is needed, but that would have my pump working full pressure at all times which isn't good either. If I were to carefully drill a second port into the intake and its valve to act as an open bypass when not sending fluid to the lift cylinder, this would allow my pump to circulate fluid without pressurizing. That would be good! That still leaves me the problem of my pump moving far too much fluid, but I should be able to control that with something like the flow control on the NAA, once I fully understand it. I'm liking this idea!

The other notion, that isn't bad by any means, is to simply run a line into the test port. I would just use the loader control valve that operates my loader lift arms. With the 3 point hitch cylinder in good shape, this shouldn't leak down badly. Advantages of this are that it wouldn't involve anything really except the addition of a few lines. Quite reversable, and usable by anyone with a loader.

This last notion could be usefull for plowing and such even for emergency lift, like we discussed a little in the rototiller discussion. If one were to have a valve to close off this feature, the onboard hydraulics would work in their normal fashion for either draft or position control. But you would have the capability of "emergency lift" by simply opening the valve and pulling the loader type lift valve. As long as the loader was using the same fluid as the gearbox, there'd be no compatability problem. And if you didn't do this very much, you wouldn't have any problem with the loader frame running out of fluid, or the transmission getting overfilled.

I've ordered the book "lets get into hydraulics" or whatever it's titled from the N-newsletter. My library doesn't have a copy of anything usefull, so I'm being forced to wait (I'm *so* patient too!). I also discovered that I'm one issue to late in when I started my N-newsletter subscription. I just missed the last article done on live hydraulics, so I'll have to order that whole volume as well. I already ordered the previous volume that had live hydraulics in it (love the n-newsletter archive list).

Farm auction tomorrow, but I should have the time to at least strip down and clean up the spare busted up pump body for more detailed examination and contemplation.

John.CO

Some modern PS pumps are plumbed to a remote fluid reservoir. Could be useful?

Generous Motorous power steering pumps are regulated at 900-1200 psi depending on the weight of the vehicle.

I think that the flow rate for PS pumps might be too low for your purpose. A check in the service manual for a flow rate vs. engine RPM test will give that information. Remember that a tractor engine runs slower that an auto engine.

Elvy

But I don't believe you want to run a Vickers vane pump through the standard valving of an 8N. That's an open-center pump, and the valving of an 8N is closed-center. I believe you will trash the pump very quickly. If you want to do that, I would think you would have to look for a modern closed-center pump that destrokes against a closed valve.

JMHO.

llater,

llamas

I really am unfamiliar with a lot about hydraulic specifics, and I don't recognize these terms. And darned if I can find a handy on line training manual at the moment. To the library tonight!

I've certainly got nothing against the idea of not using the Wagner, and buying a modern pump and installing it on the N. Shouldn't be too expensive. Truthfully, a belt driven pump would probably be better. I wouldn't have to use a heavy bulky frame, and it wouldn't make the front of the tractor ugly. And if priming or starvation is an issue, I could mount the pump down low.

Out front is about the only place to drive one. Not enough room to belt drive one off the crank pulley. And if you use your loader pump, figure some way to divert about 3/4 of the oil flow, otherwise the lift arms will rocket to the top.

You can run the live oil through a single acting open center valve and run the "load" port to the tractor's test port. With the tractor's PTO disengaged and the control lever in the up position you can raise, lower, and hold a constant mid position. But no easy way to return to a set position. Or, if you want to run the PTO and live oil, I have a way of tricking up the top cover to isolate the lift cylinder. Mail me if you want it.

John.CO

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