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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Paint concern

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AWC

02-11-2006 10:08:09




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I painted an Allis WC with PPG paint,hardner and reducer following directions very closely. The paint has cured for approx 6 months which should be sufficient. The problem is that when I bump the paint with something, even lightly, it chips and scratches very easily. The directions stated to spray two coats or until hiding. I did this but the paint coat seems very thin, even though the coverage looks very nice. When a tractor comes from the factory, the paint is much more durable and when looking at a factory chip, the paint seems much thicker. If I'd want paint like that from the factory, I'd have to shoot thirty coats. Am I doing something wrong or is that the way this paint behaves. I'd loke to correct this problem before I start another tractor. Thank you.

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thender

02-16-2006 10:06:10




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to AWC, 02-11-2006 10:08:09  
One huge factor involved with chipping, delaminating, and slow cure in any brand of paint is too much moisture in their air lines when spraying. I have seen a lot of guys put new filters in their water trap and I have put a compressed air humidity gauge on the line and seen 50% or more with a new filter. Paints of today are more and more sensitive to moisture and that can be a major factor in slow drying and delamination along with sand scratch swelling to name a few. A dessicant filter will eliminate any moisture from your air line. There are also disposable dessicant filters made by Motorguard that attach to the end of your spray gun if you don't want to spend the $300-500 on a wall mount unit.

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Frank Stalfire

02-12-2006 13:47:02




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to AWC, 02-11-2006 10:08:09  
What do you see in the chipped area, is it bare metal, or primer or ?



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awc

02-13-2006 05:47:01




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to Frank Stalfire, 02-12-2006 13:47:02  
Frank, generally just the orange paint chips off exposing primer.



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Frank Stalfire

02-13-2006 18:38:10




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to awc, 02-13-2006 05:47:01  
was the primer dried and sanded, if so with what. was the primer actually sealer and done "wet on wet"?



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B-maniac

02-12-2006 08:32:22




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to AWC, 02-11-2006 10:08:09  
The thicker it is the easier it chips . The old tractors had thin paint and little or no primer. All paint chips,but the thinner the paint the less it shows. The reason for the epoxy primers is so when you do get a chip ,the rust doesn't migrate in under the paint and cause a blister 5 times the size of the chip like it did on the old "good" paint jobs. The guys on this forum are right,a soft paint will hold up to chips better than some of the new stuff but the "new" is far superior in all the important areas. Also,even though the old doesn't chip as easily, you can bet that within 6 mos. there will be a "spider web" under the paint where it was hit because even though it didn't chip, it did break the adhesion of the paint film. Thats why when you start striping old sheet metal that looks good from a distance, you find all these little rust spots that look like little asterisks all over the panel. My answer to the chipping problem is expensive and more time consumming and harder to control the dirt. That is to use a "true" polyurethane clear instead of the acrylics. In PPG I believe it is still called 1000 polyurethane clear. It is an industrial clear and I used it on my 66 GTO 7 yrs. ago and it still looks like the day I painted it. If you drop it or hit it or lay wrenches on it ,anything will chip. Fill the chip in with multiple drops of paint,letting each one dry,then when it is back to level or a little higher than surrounding paint,sand it flat and rub with fine compound then polish,you will never know it was there .

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Rod (NH)

02-11-2006 15:48:54




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to AWC, 02-11-2006 10:08:09  
Hi,

Exactly which PPG paint products are you referring to? I have noticed a certain proneness to chipping with the OMNI MTK acrylic urethane. I have also noted that the OEM paint on my Toyota truck is also prone to chipping. I believe that's an acrylic urethane basecoat/clearcoat. The second time I've noticed fairly easy chipping with the MTK was about two weeks ago when I dropped my AC-B gas cap on a concrete floor. Height of drop was about 5 ft. Here's a picture of one of the two chip spots resulting from that:
third party image

I am a little surprised this time that the chip went all the way to the sandblasted surface. Previous chipping that I have noticed has been at the color/primer interface. In all cases, the paint system was as follows:

1. Sandblasted surface
2. Two coats of PPG OMNI MP170 epoxy primer
3. Three coats of PPG OMNI MTK acrylic urethane single stage color within the epoxy window
4. Three coats of PPG OMNI MC161 acrylic urethane clear within the color window

I've been advised that the chipping is a characteristic of the low-end urethanes. If that's true I am not sure that you can do much of anything without changing products, assuming you are talking an "economy" urethane. My experience in the past has been with hardened acylic enamels (PPG's Delstar and DuPont's Centari). I've never noticed a similar chipping problem with either of them. I think it may be because they are not as hard (and brittle) a paint film as the urethane is. Then again I don't think I've ever had the exact same conditions (like dropping a gas cap on concrete) with those paints either. I plan on trying some of PPG's premium single stage urethane, Concept, this spring when the weather gets warm. That is significantly more expensive than the MTK so I guess I may find out if a more premium product will improve the chip resistance. If it doesn't, I may consider moving back to Centari, assuming I can still get it locally. The Delstar is no longer available in my area - a shame. I really like the MTK though. It's fade and chemical (at least gasoline ond oils) resistance are both very good. Plus it is not that expensive. The only downside that I have noticed with it is this chipping thing. It doesn't happen with only a "light" hit though - at least for me. I "tunked" a fender the other day with a wrench and there was no chipping problem. The fender was painted the same way as the gas cap. The previous chip problem on my tractor was caused by the fairly heavy bearing force of a hand crank rubbing against the sheet metal opening in the front radiator shroud.

I don't know what type of paint is used on modern tractors but if you are talking factory paint jobs from the '40s, or '50s you are likely talking an alkyd (synthetic) enamel. I certainly would not call that more "durable" than a hardened acrylic enamel or a urethane. I suspect it would be less likely to chip as easily though, since it is a relatively soft paint in comparison. However, the fade and chemical resistance is not as good as a urethane, or even a hardened acylic enamel.

third party image Rod

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Farmallgray

02-11-2006 14:39:17




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to AWC, 02-11-2006 10:08:09  
CNKS mentioned adhesion. Proper adhesion is the about the most important thing that affects chip resistance. Paint that is too thick will likely chip easier that paint that is too thin. Paint gets its strength through adhesion more that film strength. When I was at Martin Senour paint school they had a real good demonstration of this.
Anyhow, your primer has to be compatible with the paint to get the best adhesion. Together, they form a bond called "crosslinking" that makes them hook together kind of like velcro. Check with your paint supplier for which of their primers will work best. Don't use any old generic primer. You also have to pay attenion to the "recoat widow". With most primers, you have to topcoat within a certain amount of time after your last primer coat. If you wait too long (usually more than 24 hrs) they won't hook together and you get poor adhesion. You may have to scuff sand and/or apply another coat of primer. Bottom line; the undercoats are just as important to a good long lasting paint job as the topcoats.

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CNKS

02-11-2006 14:09:05




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 Re: Paint concern in reply to AWC, 02-11-2006 10:08:09  
Rod(NH) may have a suggestion. I have noticed that too, but not to any great degree. (Omni MTK) You just have to be careful, it doesn't have to be much of a bump to remove paint, car or tractor. Most people are not as careful with tractors as they are with cars. I have noticed it more on the cast than the sheet metal, it is probably an adhesion problem due to the rougher surface, but I don't know. The epoxy underneath usually stays. I use three coats, just to make sure it's covered. I really doubt that the thickness of the paint has much effect. The paint put on the new tractors is more durable, but we don't have the equipment or drying facilities they have. Factory paint on new cars or tractors is about as good as it gets.

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