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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Primer under 2150

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ol-timer

02-22-2006 11:45:13




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I would like to have a good sandable primer that is the red color of ih primer,the ih takes too long to dry.What do you guys use? I like ppg but it is wrong color.




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Frank Stalfire

02-24-2006 20:06:09




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-22-2006 11:45:13  
Wow, so many topics in one post.
First, if you get a chip it should go to bare steel, if not there is a problem with adheasion, primer and topcoat should bond without every coming apart so primer color is irrelavent. HOw ever 373P primer is available in coke a cola red.
4004S primer is non iso and used very extensively in shops with no issues, iso primers do however have better gloss retention. Spectramaster is a group of generic colors with no relation to OEM colors the DuPont camera will read 3 angles and will not read flake size, it does create a formula when it needs to but the color match gets "iffy" the best thing to do is pick a simalar color, use the camera and tell the computer that is the color you want and the camera will start with that color and shade it or find one thats closer and shade it.
Frank

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B-maniac

02-23-2006 19:58:24




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-22-2006 11:45:13  
A chip is a chip no matter what color it is underneath. It still needs touched up or filled in with paint and scuffed flat and rubbed shiny to look good. Use the best products available ( not alkyd enamel) If it ain't worth spending the extra to do it right ..don't do it at all and save a lot of money.



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Seth_ia

02-22-2006 19:41:27




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-22-2006 11:45:13  
That's interesting. My usually almost dries too fast.



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CNKS

02-22-2006 16:55:38




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-22-2006 11:45:13  
I like the gray primer because it lets you see what you have missed. With red primer it is easy to miss places, particularly on cast. Downside is if you get a nick you can see the primer underneath. Perhaps Frank Stalfire, (DuPont rep) knows of a red primer that you can use. As to PPG, if you are using Omni MP 181, you are better off putting MP 170 epoxy under it. MP 182 surfacer uses hardener (supplied air required), and can be tinted with the same paint as the topcoat, but I do not know if it will work with CIH aklyd enamel.

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CNKS

02-22-2006 16:59:02




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 16:55:38  
Nope, it can be tinted only with acrylic urethane.



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ol-timer

02-22-2006 18:15:30




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 16:59:02  
CNKS Which can be tinted with acrylic urethane? I have been doing as you suggested STRIP BARE then WASH with degreaser then PRIME with 170 then COLOR 2150 with hardner within window on cast.On sheetmetal STRIP-WASH-170-PPG 181-SAND-PAINT. I would like for the sanding primer to be red so scratches and nicks dont show through so bad.I used the IH primer once but it takes DAYS before ya can sand it.I need a red 181 ???

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Rod (NH)

02-22-2006 20:31:49




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-22-2006 18:15:30  
Hi,

I'm not CNKS but I'll give an opinion. If you have the proper safety equipment to use hardener in the IH2150, PPG OMNI MP181 surfacer is not the best choice for a surfacer (sandable "primer"). The 181 is a lacquer type surfacer that does not require an iso-containing additive. It would be a good choice for someone w/o a supplied-air respirator who wants to avoid the health-safety hazards of isocyanates. PPG OMNI MP182 is a urethane surfacer that uses an iso-containing additive. It dries fast and can be sanded in a few hours. It is a light brown/tan color and can be tinted a little with PPG's OMNI MTK acrylic urethane topcoat color. I think it would be a better choice for you than the 181. However, trying to tint it with the 2150 would be a real crapshoot. I understand that the 2150 is an acrylic-modified alkyd enamel and not an acrylic urethane as is the MTK. Being a different chemistry, you could have a problem in trying to tint 182 with 2150. I don't recommend you even try. Besides, tinting will not get you the same color anyway and as CNKS says, if you get too close to the topcoat color, you can have trouble seeing where you have been and could miss some areas. The 2150 should go over the 182 fine after it's dry and sanded. The best way to not have primer show when the topcoat gets scratched or nicked is to avoid scratches and nicks. It's a problem on OEM finishes on cars and trucks - all the time. Your tractor is no different. Besides, it's only a matter of degree that any scratch or nick doesn't go to bare metal anyway. Then it's a rust mark - worse than just primer showing.

I am not familiar with IH paint products. Since Seth doesn't have a problem with the IH primer drying, you might want to review the usage instructions on the can label to be sure you are following the manufacturer's instructions, especially regarding the exact type of any reducer/thinner you may be using. If it takes days to dry, it sounds like something is wrong. You are not trying to use it when it's too cold are you? Temperatures below 70F will retard drying of most paints.

third party image Rod

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ol-timer

02-23-2006 06:59:40




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to Rod (NH), 02-22-2006 20:31:49  
Thanks Rod. Actually what i would like to do is get a whole system without the iso.Is one of the paints without isos as good as 2150 with hardner? Only reason i been using hardner is thinking durable And so i can work with it quicker to fix mistakes and recoat.Also the IH primer dries fine to the touch,it just wont sand well or let ya recoat without lifting.I dont know what it is dont even Smell.Covers good

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Rod (NH)

02-23-2006 09:24:18




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-23-2006 06:59:40  
If you are looking for a system that has no isos, then you need to lose the hardener that you are using in the 2150. I haven't seen an MSDS for that particular product, but I would bet that it contains isocyanates (as do most all hardeners). I would be very, very surprised if it didn't. Check the safety fine print on the hardener can label. I don't think you will find an iso-free, non-hardened paint that will give as good a performance as a hardened one. I understand that modern, unhardened versions of DuPont's Centari acrylic enamel and DuPont's NASON Fastdry acrylic enamel do not suffer from recoat sensitivity as such paints did in the past (and PPG's OMNI MAE apparently still does, according to PPG). At least the tech sheets for those products indicate recoating is possible after a reasonable period. If recoating is the big issue for you, you might want to investigate these paints, if you want to avoid isos. Exact available color shade may be an issue for you though. I have never used the 2150 myself, but I would select it together with the recommended hardener over anything else without.

You might still be able to find a lacquer-type surfacer in red oxide from somebody. They were available years ago. I don't know about now. If you can, that would be an easy sanding product that would give a dark, reddish colored, non-iso base for your unhardened 2150. It would provide more of the effect you are looking for than would any "tinting" effort.

I really think your best bet is to save your money and get a supplied-air breathing system. You will then have more excellent options available to you w/o risking your health in the process. I don't think anyone who has spent the extra $$$ for one has ever regretted that decision. You will still be left with your original issue of primer showing when the topcoat is scratched or nicked through however. I don't know of any way around that. If anyone does, please advise the OEMs of the better way.

Rod

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ol-timer

02-23-2006 11:42:43




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to Rod (NH), 02-23-2006 09:24:18  
Does the Centari have the isos? If not i might try it.If ya use 170 epoxy it supose to seal out all moisture from metal and is tough.What is advantage of 182 OVER 181? What does the two part do?



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Rod (NH)

02-23-2006 19:02:49




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-23-2006 11:42:43  
Centari is available in three different field mixes:

1. Centari w/Ultra Performance Pak - This is an acrylic enamel that DuPont actually refers to as an acrylic urethane - There are isos in the activator that needs to be used with this formulation.

2. Centari w/Hardener - This is the conventional hardened acrylic enamel. There are isos in the hardener that needs to be used with this formulation.

3. Centari w/Uktra 1K Pak - This is a non-hardened acrylic enamel that does not have any isos in any of the required ingredients. This is the one you want if you want to avoid isos. The tech sheet indicates that it may be recoated anytime after 4 hours, but I have never tried it. I've used both #1 and #2 above but not the 1K Pac.

Yes, I agree, the epoxy primer such as the PPG OMNI MP170 is an excellent primer. It doesn't get any better than an epoxy primer for bare metal, in my opinion.

The 182 surfacer is a urethane product that requires an iso-containing hardener. The 181 is a lacquer-based product that does not require a hardener and is iso-free. Both are relatively fast dry but the 182 dries initially by evaporation and then cures by chemical reaction of the components. The chemical reaction is due to the presence of the hardener.The 181 doesn't rely on any chemical reaction and doesn't "cure" in that sense. It only dries by evaporation of solvents in the product. The problem that exists with the 181 that doesn't with the 182 is the possible re-emergence of sandscratches after application of the topcoat. Since the 181 doesn't cure, it is susceptable to possible re-liquification upon being exposed to solvents in the topcoat. Should the 181 be applied too dry (easy to do) it can bridge over sandscratches. After sanding and applying the topcoat, the 181 can possibly re-liquify and settle back into the sandscratches, causing them to ultimately show through the topcoat. Furthermore, if it's applied too wet, the bottom portion of the film may not be completely dry, even if the surface indicates it is. In that situation, if a topcoat is applied too soon, the 181 continues to dry and shrinks into the sandscratches, causing them to show through the topcoat. The only advantage that I see in any lacquer-based surfacer is that it is iso-free. And that's only an advantage to those w/o safe breathing equipment. The use of this type of surfacer has been almost completely replaced by urethane surfacers such as the 182 for most work nowadays. Lacquer-based products are also getting squeezed hard in some areas due to air emissions. In my area, if you buy any of the 181, you are forced to buy a gallon of MS250, a thinner based on acetone, an exempt solvent - whether you need it or not. You cannot buy just the 181 alone. Lacquer thinner could be used with the 181 but that is discouraged by air emission regulations.

The Centari is a true acrylic enamel, even in the non-iso mix. If I understand correctly, the IH2150 is an acrylic-modified alkyd enamel. While it can generally be said that an acrylic enamel is "better" than an alkyd enamel, the "acylic-modifed" hybrid tends to blur the differences. Since I have never used the IH2150, I cannot say if the Centari is truly better. It may be, but only marginally so. It does have a very long history as an excellent paint. The last time I used any was a few years ago with the #1 mix formulation above. I was very satisfied with that. I do know that Centari is now quite expensive for what it is so I would expect it to cost significantly more than the 2150. Availability of color shade match to the 2150 is also an unknown, I think. If you have trouble with a good match, you could try having a fresh 2150 application scanned and compared with DuPont's generic "SpectraMaster" colors. As far as I know, all those colors are all available in Centari. Check with your local DuPont jobber if you want to find out more. I don't think it will help you out at all with your scratch/nick issue though.

Rod

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CNKS

02-23-2006 19:17:34




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to Rod (NH), 02-23-2006 19:02:49  
I hope DuPont's "Spectramaster" is better than whatever PPG calls theirs. I painted a battery cover with 2150 and had it scanned a couple of times (2150 gets somewhat darker with age). It was not even close either time, malfunction of the operator or scanner I don't know. I finally juggled the toners in the 2150 equivalent, PPG 71310, and got pretty close.



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CNKS

02-24-2006 06:10:44




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to CNKS, 02-23-2006 19:17:34  
PPG may have a match at a level above the jobber, I don't know. However he admits that the color he gets is only 80% accurate, it's at least that bad. The colors that he comes up with do have names, I don't know if the computer names them or if they are existing colors, I suspect the latter. The current employee is really pretty good, unlike some of the others. I do think he tries to get the correct match, takes care of the toners etc. He does a lot of business in the Omni line. As to the orange I see in 2150/PPG 71310, it may be my eyes. Although by adjusting the amounts of two of the toners in 71310, I got rid of a little (not much) orange, there really is not a lot of difference between IH 2150 and the unmodified PPG 71310. I was led to believe that IH 2150 had no or very little orange in it -- not true, at least to my eyes. I don't think anyone really knows what the IH colors were originally, not even the manufacturer of 2150. I, personally do not believe that the "deep red" that people seem to think is correct is actually the original color. There are simply too many variables in the manufacuring process.

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Rod (NH)

02-23-2006 19:57:59




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to CNKS, 02-23-2006 19:17:34  
I have never had a scan done by DuPont. It's my understanding that their SpectraMaster colors are what I would call a rainbow of colors across the spectrum that have formulas developed for them. They are separate and distinct from the typical auto manufacturer/model codes. I think (but don't know) that when you have a sample scanned, the act of scanning does not develop a custom formula by itself. Instead, it picks the closest match available in one of the predefined SpectraMaster colors. You may therefore not get a perfect match without proceeding with DuPont to develop a specific custom formula for you. I don't think that is done at the jobber level - at least not formally. I could be wrong in this understanding. If Frank S. comes by maybe he can either confirm or correct me. I do believe that DuPont's YS074, SpectraMaster Yellow, is a near perfect match to the early persian orange used by AC on their tractors. The visual test that Jason(ma) did and posted here before has proven that to me. It's a better match than any of the DuPont formula codes previously listed specifically for that tractor color.

I have no idea what PPG's similar scanning capability is or even what it's called. It's unfortunate that you didn't have good luck with it. If it's that bad it can't possibly be competitive. I'd suspect a jobber problem. I think you've said in the past that your PPG jobber left something to be desired.

Rod

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CNKS

02-23-2006 07:29:03




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 Re: Primer under 2150 in reply to ol-timer, 02-23-2006 06:59:40  
You are using the correct system if you don't use supplied air. As Rod says nicks will show on anything. It may be that gray under red looks worse than a nick to bare metal that rusts -- but I personally will likely never use a primer that is about the same as the topcoat, simply because I want to be sure it is all covered. For me that is much more of a problem on cast than sheet metal. As to replacing the 2150 with another unhardened paint, PPG makes an acrylic enamel in the Omni line, it likely is not that much better than the acrylic modified alkyd 2150 CIH sells, but I don't know. PPG also makes acrylic modified paint in their industrial line probably no better than 2150. If you have supplied air, use acrylic urethane (MTK) with the tinted MP 182 surfacer underneath, and hope you get it covered. Do not do that without supplied air.

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