Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

More chips

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
CNKS

02-25-2006 07:20:42




Report to Moderator

With regard to Frank's response below about chips -- Epoxy can be topcoated within the window specified by the manufacturer. Is there any advantage, or disadvantage to applying the topcoat as soon as the epoxy flashes, or does it need to be "dry", about 30 minutes with PPG MP 170. Will the topcoat bond better if done the same day as the epoxy? If either of the above is true, will the topcoat bond better with the primer and and produce a surface less prone to chipping down to the primer?

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Rod (NH)

02-25-2006 10:15:57




Report to Moderator
 Re: More chips in reply to CNKS, 02-25-2006 07:20:42  
Opinion time. My reading of the MP170 tech sheet is that a minimum of 30 minutes at 70°F dry time is recommended (2 coats) by PPG prior to topcoating. I have heard some suggesting to topcoat immediately without any dry time at all, but I have never done that and don't think it is implied or recommended by PPG. For comparison, DuPont's premium DPLF epoxy indicates 90 minutes dry time to topcoat for 2 coats of the epoxy. I think that's pretty clear and I have applied the same type of thinking for years with the PPG product, which implies something similar but is less clear about it.

I suppose an argument can be made that you can get better adhesion by topcoating as soon as possible after that initial dry and not dragging it out until later in the time window. I really don't know how important that is and have never played around with it that close. I have had one chip with the MTK that separated at the color/surfacer to epoxy interface and another one that went to bare, sandblasted metal. The one that went direct to metal did not have a surfacer applied at all. I am usually pretty good at keeping to the time windows so it's anybody's guess why the one I mentioned first separated at that point. What I didn't expect was the one that went all the way to the metal. I am quite sure I did about everything by the book on that one. I can say that my only real experience with chipping paint has been in the last few years and both times with the MTK. I cannot recall any similar problem over the years with either hardened Delstar AE or hardened Centari AE - except the stone/sand blasting that occurs on auto lower rear quarters and some rocker panels from extensive travel on dirt roads. I don't classify that in the same sense as the "chipping" we are talking about here though. I am not a student of this but it would seem to me to be relative to what I think is a harder, more brittle film with the MTK than the hardened AE. I will definitely be trying some Concept higher cost acrylic urethane later this spring when warm weather arrives. I am not going to chip the parts intentionally but may get a feel if any noticeable difference with the MTK develops over time.

I also know that the one chip that happened on my OEM bc/cc Toyota separated at the basecoat color/primer interface - but that is a different type of system than we are talking about, so any conclusion from it is questionable.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

02-25-2006 12:07:15




Report to Moderator
 Re: More chips in reply to Rod (NH), 02-25-2006 10:15:57  
Just curious, I think read on this forum 4 years? ago of a person that recommended that with etch primer, not that it is any different. It would seem that if you can apply more primer or topcoat after the flash time, that you could put topcoat over primer in the same time frame. I have probably done that on small parts, but my memory is lousy enough that I don't remember on which parts. I did not do it that way for any specific purpose, just to get done. But, I suppose the 30 minute dry time is because the epoxy and topcoat are not 100% compatible, thus while you want the topcoat to bond with the primer, perhaps you want only minimal penetration, I don't know. With the low humidity in my area, the flash time for MP 170 is probably more like two minutes vs 5 or 10, even at 70 degrees. It dries very fast. If I have several small parts to do, I apply one coat to all, then sometimes I immediately start on the second coat, after checking the first part I did, usually it is ready. As to chips on my vehicles, I don't think I have ever seen one that did not go to bare metal. On the other hand most of the chips I see on MTK stop at the primer, which is why I asked the question -- It has not been a major problem.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

02-25-2006 16:48:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: More chips in reply to CNKS, 02-25-2006 12:07:15  
Jeez, I see I said DPLF was a DuPont product. It's PPG's premium epoxy. DuPont also has one but it's not DPLF. My mistake. Sorry.

I see that the MP 170 tech sheet doesn't specify a flash time between coats at all. Of course the earlier version of the sheet recommended just one coat - which would make flash time irrelevent. The latest tech sheet incorporates a 15 min induction period, which is new to 170, and now recommends 1 or 2 coats but doesn't indicate a flash time if two coats are used. In comparison, the DPLF (which has always had a 30 min induction period) recommends 2 coats if a metal conditioning treatment is not used, with a flash time of 10-15 min between coats. As I said before the time to apply a topcoat is a minimum of 90 min if 2 coats are used - clearly longer than the flash between coats. An overnight dry is recommended if body filler is to be applied over 2 coats of DPLF epoxy. The DPLF has a seven day window instead of the 3 day window for the 170.

I did check out 2 DuPont epoxies:

2540S:
no induction period
no mention of flash time between coats
dry time to topcoat if 2 coats are used = 40-60 min
24 hr max window to topcoat w/o sanding

Nason HS941-35:
no induction period
no flash time between coats
dry time to topcoat even if only 1 coat used = 60-90min
no mention of any max window to topcoat w/o sanding

It seems clear to me that both PPG and DuPont want to get most of any solvent to flash off before proceeding to topcoat. I suspect that if solvents are still flashing when a topcoat is applied, the possibility exists that continued flash can result in additional shrinkage of the underlying primer film and sandscratches showing in the topcoat. But that's only speculation on my part. Perhaps Frank can shed some light on the issue, at least from a DuPont perspective.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

02-25-2006 17:33:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: More chips in reply to Rod (NH), 02-25-2006 16:48:38  
OK, let's forget primer for a moment -- but still related to flashing. The cast chassis of a tractor is difficult to paint, at least for me -- hard to hold the gun the correct distance from all the variations and curvatures in the cast. It's not nice and flat like the sheet metal. Easy to get fading of certain parts--I call it "dieback" which I usually see several days after painting. Particularly bad when I inadvertantly double coat an area while trying to fit the pattern into an adjacent area, before the previous area has flashed -- any way to avoid this?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

02-26-2006 11:04:57




Report to Moderator
 Re: More chips in reply to CNKS, 02-25-2006 17:33:46  
According to the Sherwin Williams troubleshooting guide, inadequate flash time between coats can be a cause for later dulling of gloss. I do not understand the reason why. I can't say I have experienced anything like it (my loss of gloss, caused by premature exposure to dew, is not the same). But then I have never done an entire cast chassis - the only castings I have done have been individual, disassembled parts where I can get a reasonable shot at them. Cars and trucks do not present the problem of so many hard-to-get-at, rapidly changing orientations as an assembled tractor chassis. I don't have an answer to your question. Perhaps someone else who has had a similar problem and found the solution can provide some input.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy