Isocyanates,Respirators and Supplied air .

Well, I disagree again. We know nothing of the kind. I am as much of a "shadetree DIY painter" as anyone on this forum, perhaps more so. When I decided to go with supplied-air, I was painting at most, 2 cars a year outside in my driveway. I was forced to make a choice if I was to continue painting - forget hardeners and stick with a cartridge respirator or spend the money for supplied-air. The status quo - severe shortness of breath and frequent coughing beginning a few hours after painting and continuing into the next day - was simply an unacceptable situation. I still do all my painting (which is very little) outside. Not much here for facilities. I consider my painting "facility" to be my supplied air mask. It's the best $400 (back then) I ever spent. And that was when Centari was $30 a gallon. It's all in where one places their priorities. We'll just have to agree to disagree where "the better than nothing" emphasis should be placed. We are obviously on opposite sides of that argument.

I have consistently advised on this forum that if anyone doesn't want to spend the extra money for the normally recommended supplied-air breathing protection, then they should stick with the older technology, unhardened enamels. Those were perfectly acceptable before isocyanates were developed and can be used to advantage by many, even today. Plus, in most cases that would be as good if not better than the original paint applied at the factory. As "good" as the hardened enamels or urethanes? Of course not. I've expressed my opinion here before as to what I see as the significant downsides to using unhardened enamels vs. the iso-containing products. I will also disagree with many and say that even a rattle can job with Rustoleum is better than nothing at all.

Compromises usually have to be made by most people on many things. The paint durability/health risk trade-off is one such compromise that many who read this forum, also being DIYs with inadequate facilities, generally need to consider. They should be aware that using iso-containing materials without supplied air breathing equipment is generally not recommended - certainly not by the paint manufacturers as evidenced by their MSDS sheets. And that lacking professional facilties only makes the issue more important. They can certainly choose to ignore that if they wish, but it will be a conscious decision to do so and one that they will have to be personally responsible for. If your research turns up any reasonable authority that officially recommends negative pressure cartridge respirators, in writing, for isocyanates to anyone without customary professional facilities and without air sampling to define breathing zone exposure levels, even for a one time painting job, please advise on this forum. I'd be very interested in the details and I am sure others would also.

Rod

I'm all ears. I hope you do "clear it up". However, I do find it somewhat unusual that you have been recommending the very best (and by extension, the most expensive) paint materials to the DIYs that frequent this site and, at the same time, seem to be promoting the riskier, cheaper way out with regard to health-safety. What's even more surprising is that you indicate you are "extremely allergic" to isos - but you personally continue to use such products with a method of respiratory protection that most responsible authorities no longer recommend for those very same products. There's a word for that but it escapes me at the moment.

In any event, I hope your research will include a discussion of some of the practical matters facing the typical home-shop DIY (as opposed to a pro painter in pro facilities that have had official health assessments conducted), including:

1. Lack of professional spray booth facilities
2. Likely inadequate mechanical ventilation, if any at all
3. Lack of any realistic means to perform air sampling and determine actual exposure levels in their unique situations, which can be highly variable
4. The details of 3M's "provision" regarding PELs where they currently recommend one of their cartridges as an acceptable means for protecting against of iso exposure - and how the typical DIY is supposed to assure he meets such a provision. 3M is the only cartridge manufacturer that I am aware of who pushes their cartridge promotion that far. If you find others, I would appreciate knowing the details - especially if thay have end-of-service-life indicators built in. 5. Cartridge change schedules as they relate to a non-pro DIY situation and how they would be implemented
6. The fact that some DIYs require eyeglasses or have facial hair that would negate any type of negative pressure mask, no matter the effectiveness of the actual cartridge itself
7. Fit testing of any negative pressure mask
8. The fact that some individuals can be more susceptible to adverse reactions to isos than others

You might also want to consider adding NIOSH to your research list of authorities on the subject. As an independent institute devoted to health and safety, they are less prone to be influenced by potential class action lawsuits, desire to promote the sale of equipment or political pressures to compromise.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. Everyone is also responsible for their own personal health safety - especially so if they are not governed by regulations of the workplace and laws that govern such workplaces. They owe it to themselves to evaluate available evidence gained from years of industry experience, together with risks associated with usage of products that can be harmful to them. I believe that the above noted items need to be considered by any DIY as part of any personal risk assessment before they decide on what is acceptable for them and what is not. I came to the conclusion many years ago, from personal adverse experience with isos, that if I wanted to continue using such paint additives, I would have to get supplied air equipment. I did that and I have never regretted it. It's always easy to spend someone else's money and just as easy to play fast and loose with someone else's health. I simply will not use hardened paints myself without supplied air and, as a matter of prudence, I do not recommend doing so to others. I'll let others decide if that's being paranoid or not - I really don't care. Besides, it's only my recommendation - they can obviously do as they please - and will. Some people decide to continue smoking after many years of evidence and warnings. That's their risk and their decision, but many will probably pay a heavy premature price for it.

Rod

here is the section on respiration.. verbatum.. copy and pasted from the msds pdf file.

""Respiratory protection:
If exposure cannot be controlled below applicable limits, use the appropriate NIOSH approved respirator such as an air
purifying respirator with organic vapor cartridge and dust/mist filter.""

Guess the amount of the bad stuff in this hardner is much less ??

Soundguy

I think the 'open air' is by far a big piece of the safety factor.

Soundguy

There's a relatively easy way for most to avoid all the variables and unknowns and minimize risks using proven, recommended means. That they choose to rationalize not taking it by using excuses is their problem. I have come to the conclusion that there really is no excuse. The cost and "only one tractor" arguments are not convincing to me. Most people like to save a little money and there is a definite demand for such equipment from DIYs. Given the nature of the internet nowadays, I believe that one could purchase a new Hobby Air or other similar setup, use it for their "only one tractor" and sell it on Ebay for 75% of what they paid for it. Net, that's only about the cost of a gallon of "economy" automotive paint and only about a quart of the high-end stuff.

Rod

Not saying you are wrong.. But for the guy who paints 1 tractor a year, outside in open air ( which by the way complies with the directions and safety warning on the iso laden hardner can - self contained breathing, or painting in an open environment- ) I think the danger is extremely low.. We are probably getting more hazardous materials exposure from welding fumes IMHO.. .. how many people do you see wearing full air masks .. or -any- mask while welding???

I wonder what voc exposure we see at a fueling point?

Soundguy

'iso-something' was listed inthe ingredients on the can of hardner.

Soundguy

Soundguy

Soundguy

However.. with what you said. it does sound like there is a 'threshold' level for concern when using a respirator / vs a self contained air supply, meaning if concentrations around the painter are lower than 'x'.. then acceptable exposure... etc. Given that the products solvated and airborn will try to reach homeostasis.. and given that there is a 'virtual' endless amount of air to try and occupy to reach that even dispersion, it stands to reason that air content will continually decrease starting at the time of release. Doesn't take much to -not- be in an engulfed and saturated area, for those that spray paint outside. A good respirator with an exhaust valve would be necescary for effective respirator use, as well as fit, and seal.. etc..

Soundguy

Rod

• MSDS

I think the product number is 4625..

Soundguy

Most will not bother, but you might be interested in the NIOSH data sheet on hexamethylene diisocyanate, a common iso compound in paint hardeners and activators. Notice the recommended respiratory protection compared with exposure levels. And here's a similar sheet for one of the iso compounds in the MH167. PPG is a very large paint manufacturer, like DuPont. They will likely promulgate the same recommendations as medical safety researchers like NIOSH and ACGIH publish. They would be foolish to do otherwise.

Rod

The product I use is not PPg.. etc..

Soundguy

Soundguy

SAFETY FIRST !

Soundguy