Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Rod(NH)

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
CNKS

03-01-2006 11:41:02




Report to Moderator

The Valspar hardener SounDguy is using contains no iso's -- never heard of one without them. He sent me the MSDS, which I have forwarded to you, provided you have the same email address -- If you don't get it, I think my email is open (never tried before) send me your email and I will forward it.




[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
c hess

03-01-2006 18:29:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to CNKS, 03-01-2006 11:41:02  
Ityped in on the www bar at top -than on first message that came up- than i retiped in valspar hardner again in search an i believe i than clicked on the mds photo. Ihope this helps. cOMPANIES STARTING WITH V SHOULD COME UP AN THAN SCHROLL TILL YOU COME TO VALSPAR. Ilooked again an i think they have 3 hardners an at least with one you are to use supplied air . Am learning a lot from you folks!!!!! !!!

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
c hess

03-01-2006 17:37:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to CNKS, 03-01-2006 11:41:02  
If you type in ( valspar paint hardner ) you can findout what is in there hardner if you follow down to ingridents. I dont now words but one or two look like stuff you dont want to breathe.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-01-2006 17:57:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to c hess, 03-01-2006 17:37:18  
You are correct -- if you mean the one in the link. That is the first Valspar product I found in a Google search. The area in Valspars web site with that info is down at the moment. Valspar makes many hardeners. For the one in the link (it does list iso's) it simply says to wear an NIOSH approved respirator, leaving unknowing people to think any mask is NIOSH approved, when, in reality, the only iso approved respirator certified by NIOSH is supplied air or perhaps a self contained system that uses an oxygen tank of some sort. That type of wording is not correct, and should not be legal. Somewhere on their labeling it will (or should) say "for professional use only" meaning commercial body shops. Perhaps that gets them off the hook, I don't know.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

03-01-2006 17:55:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to c hess, 03-01-2006 17:37:18  
Exactly where do you type that in? I don't follow. Can you be more specific as where I should type in "valspar paint hardener" to get the ingredients?

Rod



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

03-01-2006 17:04:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to CNKS, 03-01-2006 11:41:02  
Just got your latest email. Isophorone diisocyanate on the can label 'eh? Well I guess that clarifies the NIOSH recommendation - supplied air, no matter the actual exposure concentration. And it puts Valspar out-to-lunch regarding the safety aspects of using their product. It also brings up very serious questions concerning the accuracy/legality of their MSDS for it. They need to hire better lawyers.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-01-2006 17:38:45




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to Rod (NH), 03-01-2006 17:04:25  
Yes, it's hard to believe they can actually get by with that. SouNdguy says the number on his can matches that on the MSDS, yet they appear to be two different animals. I was hoping they had come up with a non-iso hardener, does not look like it. They are trying to make themselves legal by saying if you are sensitive to iso's, don't use it. I don't think that would hold up in court. Perhaps no sick painter has ever sued them. I am normally not in favor of lawsuits, but if you take them at their word and get sick, it sure looks like one.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

03-01-2006 15:57:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to CNKS, 03-01-2006 11:41:02  
Well, that's interesting. There certainly is no obvious isocyanate compound being reported. It's a surprise to me as it's the first topcoat enamel hardener that I've seen that didn't have some kind of isos in it. The respiratory recommendation, such as it is, is pretty vague though, even for a non-iso product. At least I think it is.

It would be instructive to know whats in that "proprietary resin" listed as a "trade secret". It makes up about 50% of the whole product! I don't know what the rules are on reporting such things like that in an MSDS. I hope it would be not permissible to bury hazardous stuff like isocyanates in such a catchall category but perhaps there are loopholes. Certainly would be risky for any company to do so.

I find this wording troubling on page two and wonder why it's mentioned at all:

"Overexposures may cause certain individuals to develop isocyanate sensitization which causes a reaction in isocyanates below the TLV."

Can you become sensitized to isocyanates by something with no isocyanates in it? I have no idea but wouldn't think so. Somethings smells - no pun intended.

You'd have to have more faith than I do in Valspar to fly with a cartridge mask when using that product. You are relying totally on their vague recommendation with no practical way to verify anything. You cannot even be sure that you need any kind of respirator at all. Compared with the ones I've seen from PPG and DuPont, this seems to be a poor quality, weasel-worded MSDS - at least from my layman's perspective. In the end, it leaves me with more questions than answers.

Rod

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

03-02-2006 07:25:58




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to Rod (NH), 03-01-2006 15:57:32  
That's my guess.. that the iso stuff is burried, as a compound, in their proprietary resin.

Just to be tripple sure, I rechecked, and the can is identified as product number 4625, and has a 12 digit upc code. Those #'s seem to match the msds, that lists it is for ""Product ID: 018.0004625 ""

Weird huh.... guess if the blend is a trade secret then it isn't dangerous?

The only other thought that crossed my mind, is.. as a trade secret compound, they are not disclosing the concentrations of each component chemical. Perhaps in this hardener.. the iso content is extremely low.. lower than the threshold for printing it on the MSDS, per osha.. etc?.. just grasping at straws here... other ideas?

Soundguy

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rod (NH)

03-02-2006 17:33:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to souNdguy, 03-02-2006 07:25:58  
SouNdguy,

This looks like the stuff you are talking about:

third party image

I think that MSDS you got from Valspar is the right one for that hardener, at least according to Valspar. As you say, the numbers match up well.

What's really bothersome to me is that the iso compound you mentioned (isophorone diisocyanate) shows up on the can label but not in the MSDS. There may be different rules for product labelling and MSDS preparation - I don't know. I am also troubled by the reference to isocyanates in the text of the MSDS for no obvious reason. The use of the words "NIOSH Approved" has always been unclear to me as to exactly what has been approved by that body. A for instance is the Hobby Air fresh air respirators. There are actually two versions, one is claimed by Axis (the manufacturer) as "NIOSH Approved" and one is not. The one that is presumably NIOSH Approved is referred to as the Pro Air model. As far as I know, NIOSH has never "approved" any type of fresh air source such as a turbine or compressor used by Axis or any other company. They may have approved the facepiece parts and the connecting hose, but I doubt very much that NIOSH has approved the entire system of the Pro Air for isocyanates, despite the manufacturer's claim. They (NIOSH) have indicated in the past that they "encourage" the use of such systems as being an improvement but have not approved them because they have no control over where the turbine/compressor is located. They have only indicated that the air supplied for breathing must comply with Grade D of the federal spec for breathing air. That makes sense to me. It is very misleading to suggest to anyone, that since they have a "NIOSH Approved" system, they are safe. That's not necessarily true. They certainly wouldn't be safe if the user placed the turbine in the same room he was spraying in.

It's all quite confusing really. The "threshold limit value" concentration of 0.005 ppm for most (if not all) of the isocyanate compounds is the concentration that is presumably safe for most healthy individuals to breathe on a time weighted average over 8 or 10 hours every day. I believe there is also a "ceiling" of 0.02 ppm that must not be exceeded, even for a short time. That's for most, not all, individuals. That's my understanding of it. If it is shown that the concentration in the air doesn't exceed 0.005 ppm of the hazardous component, then in theory and regulation, a respirator is not necessary. Of course the DIY in a home shop environment, even outdoors, has no practical means to measure or determine exposure values, which can be highly variable. He has absolutely no way of knowing if he has exceeded any established "safe" values. NIOSH is conservative in their recommendations. They recommend that supplied air be used if isocyanates are involved at all, even if the concentration is below that threshold limit value. In other words, at all times isocyanates are used, period. That is clear in the two NIOSH links that I have posted previously on this subject. Even 3M, which does recommend their organic vapor cartridge for some isos, does so only on the conditions that the iso exposure concentration is known and is less than 10x the threshold limit value (0.05 ppm). They clearly state that if the concentration is not known, then supplied air is recommended.

All this and $5 will get you a cup of coffe at Starbucks, I think. Anyway, if anyone wishes to play the numbers game when the numbers are not known, they can certainly can. It's there own decision. Hopefully they will at least be informed of the variables involved, weigh them carefully, and decide on a level of risk that they feel is right for them. I always go with supplied air if there is even a hint of isos involved, but that's just me.

Rod

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

03-02-2006 19:58:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to Rod (NH), 03-02-2006 17:33:29  
Yep, that's the stuff. Boy.. I wonder what it takes to get a list of the 'proprittary blend' chemicals it used, and quantities. That way a projection could be made to figure free air concentration of such chemicals.. As you mention.. it's really weird how the info looks burried.. etc..

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-02-2006 07:36:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to souNdguy, 03-02-2006 07:25:58  
Chris, I replied to your last email. Perhaps, OSHA, etc does have regs regarding the lack listing of iso's below a certain concentration. I imagine if they do that, they assume that you have a paint booth capable of reducing the iso's to that level. We do not have that type of facility, and as I said in my email, I don't trust that particular MSDS, or what the can says. I have to leave for now, trying to finish one of my mutilple painting operations with iso containing hardener -- will be back later.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
souNdguy

03-02-2006 07:46:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to CNKS, 03-02-2006 07:36:00  
Just got your email.

I'm really suprised that the MSDS can be that vauge...

Remember to hold your breath!

Soundguy



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-02-2006 11:24:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to souNdguy, 03-02-2006 07:46:39  
I have actually done that upon reentry, if I forgot something. Then a charcoal mask later, when I think "enough" iso's are gone -- I, (cough, hack) don't know that they are gone, though. Stupid tractor, I think I have painted over 100 individual parts off and on the last month, and still haven't done the sheet metal, not to mention all the bolts that I have forgotten what they are for. Organized I'm not.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
CNKS

03-01-2006 11:43:34




Report to Moderator
 Re: Rod(NH) in reply to CNKS, 03-01-2006 11:41:02  
That's souNdguy -- sorry.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy