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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Van Sickle Paint

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CNKS

03-03-2006 14:32:58




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Due to the questions raised below about isocyanates in hardner: I went to the local farm store that sells Van Sickle. Van Sickle is an inexpensive alkyd enamel similar to the one sold by Tractor Supply, etc. I had already read the MSDS (see link) and it was inconclusive. The can label readily admits that it contains iso's for which a "NIOSH approved" respirator is required. Further they recommend an "air line" respirator (supplied air) for concentrations above 10 times the TLV (Rod can tell us what TLV stands for but it means "safe level" to me). For people who have air monitoring equipment a charcoal mask is ok for use when the actual level is less than 10x TLV. I believe it said that nothing is required if the TLV is at the minimum level or less. Also that no one should use it at any level if they are sensitive to iso's (no brainer). Of course we don't have air monitoring equipment. Like the Valspar hardener SouNdguy uses, the MSDS (see link) does not mention iso's as an ingredient. However it does mention iso's as a combustible product further down in the fine print. (Valspars does not) MSDS says only to "use a NIOSH/MSHA approved respirator" for levels above the TLV. I have been led to believe that the MSDS was the last word, and went into more detail than the actual label. It gives detail but also leaves out the most important safety info as to use.

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B-maniac

03-03-2006 18:13:59




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 Re: Van Sickle Paint in reply to CNKS, 03-03-2006 14:32:58  
In my humble opinion,hardner in alkyd enamel only gives it faster cure time and therefor faster repair time. I have seen no improvement in durability or fade resistance so really whats the point? Just use the paint without hardener and buff it back shiny when it fades. Simple and safe!



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CNKS

03-03-2006 19:35:07




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 Re: Van Sickle Paint in reply to B-maniac, 03-03-2006 18:13:59  
I'm not promoting alkyd enamel, and likely will never use it, unless the EPA bans the "professional use" PPG, DuPont, etc paints from us amatures. Just curious why Valspar and Van Sickle have differing info about iso's between their individual labels and MSDSs. For people who cannot control the amount of iso's where ever it is that they paint, the companies should just say "supplied air is required", instead of making vague statements. This subject has about run it's course, until some newcomer to this forum advocates hardened paint with a charcoal mask, which I hope won't be soon.

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Rod (NH)

03-03-2006 17:22:25




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 Re: Van Sickle Paint in reply to CNKS, 03-03-2006 14:32:58  
Ah, another MSDS where the bulk of the stuff is a "trade secret". I can't find the link right now, but somewhere fairly recently I have read that less than 5% of all MSDSs utilize a trade secret provision of the OSHA rules on hazard communication. I don't recall seeing PPG use such a provision in their MSDSs, but I haven't reviewed a lot of them. It's very suspicious that the 50-75% secret portion of the product has a TLV of 0.005 ppm - a very low level that is common for most iso compounds. Compared to the levels noted for the listed hazardous chemicals, you'd think there was something especially nasty in that secret part of the mix, wouldn't you?. You don't suppose it could contain some isos? Their vague respirator information is simply useless for most people.

Similar to the Valspar stuff we were talking about, there is also some wording farther down in the text that refers to "isocyanate vapors" - out of the blue, under decomposition products. You indicate that an isocyanate is indicated on the can label and that supplied air is mentioned, albeit at 10xTLV and greater. Looks like the can label is more informative than the MSDS but still not practically usable by most DIYs.

My understanding of TLV is noted in my post below to souNdguy. It's only my understanding of it and I could be wrong - I am not a student of such things, but am familiar with some of the terminology, having been involved in industrial ventilation design in the past. The 10x reference is the same as 3M is using in their cartridge respirator guidelines. However, it's a useless variable for anyone not in a booth that's given periodic official industrial hygiene surveys to verify expected and reasonably consistent exposure levels.

Any bureaucratic system such as the OSHA has loopholes, I am sure. There are probably individuals who make their living exploiting them. Sorry, but I am getting a bit cynical here. I cannot rationalize why a hazardous chemical like one of the isocyanates gets listed on a can label but doesn't show up explicitly in the MSDS for that very same product. The MSDS is supposed to be the official document for notification of the presence of hazardous materials to employers and end users. If the quantity of the chemical is high enough to require can labelling, then it should be high enough to require listing on an MSDS and not be buried in some trade secret mix. If anyone can explain this situation to me, I'd love to hear about it.

Rod

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CNKS

03-03-2006 17:51:18




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 Re: Van Sickle Paint in reply to Rod (NH), 03-03-2006 17:22:25  
I don't know why it has to be trade secret. I'm sure all the paint companies know how to make hardener. And it is, after all, alkyd enamel, which has been around since Noah, well maybe Theodore Roosevelt (sp?). Not much you can do to alkyd enamel, except some UV inhibitors, that's no secret. Too many acronyms for my feeble brain. We have volatile organic compounds (VOC), threshold limit value (TLV) and PEL, permissable emission value?? -- haven't see that one in print. I thought the can said PEL until I looked at the MSDS which uses TLV -- I suppose they are the same. Like you say it appears that the problem is with the cheap hardener. Legal or not I could see PPG or DuPont having "trade secrets" in their top of the line paints -- something called competition and trying to one up the other company, but alkyd enamel hardener -- who cares?

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Rod (NH)

03-03-2006 19:47:58




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 Re: Van Sickle Paint in reply to CNKS, 03-03-2006 17:51:18  
I think PELs are OSHA-specific This might help some with the acronyms. You're right, who cares? Any "trade secrets" about a hardener in an alkyd have long been superceded by better formulations from most manufacturers. The alkyds haven't been used in the auto-refinish industry in many years. As far as I know PPG no longer markets their old Ditzco alkyd, at least not as far as an auto paint goes. Neither does DuPont market their venerable Dulux alkyd in the same fashion. Both of those had hardeners available.

The automotive world has moved far, far beyond the alkyds. Just for fun, I checked out PPG's offering in their commercial lineup. They have an ALKFP alkyd enamel that can use an ALK-201 "catalyst". If you use the catalyst, the product is called an "alkyd with polyurethane enhancer". Looks like nothing more than your typical hardener. Anyway, here's the MSDS for it. Looks about the same as other PPG MSDSs. An iso is listed and it's very clear that supplied air is recommended. I don't see a particular TLV associated with that specific iso compound so maybe it hasn't been anaylzed. However, PPG seems to be treating it like all the other isos that have been evaluated. There doesn't appear to me to be anything unique about the alkyd enamel hardeners that results in them being more safe than those used in acrylics or urethanes. That seems to be the position of both NIOSH and PPG also. I suspect you would find a similar result if you investigated similar DuPont offerings.

Rod

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CNKS

03-03-2006 20:08:29




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 Re: Van Sickle Paint in reply to Rod (NH), 03-03-2006 19:47:58  
The P-sheets indicate that Alk 200 (can use the 201 hardener you indicated) is an acrylic modified alkyd, that I assume is quite similar to Valspars IH 2150. I haven't looked up one called ALKFP--that's straight alkyd?



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Rod (NH)

03-03-2006 20:27:49




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 Re: Van Sickle Paint in reply to CNKS, 03-03-2006 20:08:29  
Yup



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