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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Clearing MTK

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CNKS

03-10-2006 09:49:52




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Question intended for Rod(NH), but anyone else who has actually done this is free to answer. I'm about ready to paint the sheet metal in my IH 460. I'm thinking about using clear in the last coat mixed 50-50 with MTK, both ready to spray as per the instruction sheet. As opposed to actual clearing by itself. Since I'm diluting the actual color, doesn't this make the last coat lighter? Or does the undercoats provide the color? I was going to use my usual 3 coats, and let the third one be mixed with the clear. Since I read it was supposed to be 1:1, guess I had better do the 3 coats and let the 4th be mixed with the clear. I have two reasons for doing this -- 1) To see if I get a noticeable improvement in gloss, compared to a couple of other less visible parts already painted that do not matter one way or the other. 2) But, the primary reason is that I seem to pick up more dust, lint, etc. At least partially because I now use a homemade paint booth to keep from contaminating my whole shop. Although the intake air is filtered, it is impossible for me to fully seal the contraption that I built, and the air flow due to the exhaust fans worsens the problem (I think). So I intend to apply 3 coats, dry overnight and scuff or sand the whole thing to get rid of the defects, hoping that the contamination in the final coat is acceptable.

(I do not expect the clear to correct the contamination problem, since I have to sand anyway, I just though I would try it)

Do I need to color sand with sand paper, or can I use scotch-brite pads? I seem to have improved my technique enough that the inevitable orange peel is down to an acceptable level (watch me mess up when it really counts). If scotchbrite, which color? All I have is the green ones from Walmart, suitable for what I have used them for so far, perhaps not for a "perfect" finish. The answer should also apply to not using the clear if recommendations are against it, as I can apply two coats of MTK, sand/scuff, then apply a 3rd coat without the clear. I was thinking if I do use the clear, I had better have 3 full coats without clear to make sure I have coverage. Also the MTK p-sheet says to use MC160, 161, or 260. All I find P-sheets for are 161 and 260. 260 is apparantly for spot repairs, if that matters. 161 is high solids -- is that what I should use or something else? Any comments, for or against are appreciated, I have never tried this before.

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B-maniac

03-11-2006 15:11:03




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to CNKS, 03-10-2006 09:49:52  
Havn't used these exact products but to accomplish what I think you are after,heres what I do. First of all forget the clear,since it isn't a bc/cc system you won't see any gains.Paint with three coats,let cure,wet sand smooth with 600 until all imperfections are gone.The next procedure is what works for me to get as close to perfect as you can get WITHOUT sand and buff which as I understand is really what you are after here. For the last coat of paint ,clean everything meticulously and wet down floor(for dirt and to create humidity as humidity helps paint flow and gets rid of the "fuzzies". You may not agree with what I'm going to say next but it's the only thing that works for me. Leave your fan OFF while you spray your "appearance" last coat and leave it off for at least 15 min. or enough time for the paint to skin over. Then turn on the fan to get overspray out so as to not dull the surface. It's a timming thing but it has always yielded axcellent "as sprayed " jobs for me. Good luck.

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CNKS

03-11-2006 17:43:45




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to B-maniac, 03-11-2006 15:11:03  
I don't disagree, in fact I have thought about doing that. If I do only one piece of sheet metal at a time, it could work without creating too much overspray. I might try that on one piece I have already painted -- all I have to do is sand and paint -- then if I have about the same number of nibs, I have another problem. Since I can't tell for sure what caused them, I can eliminate one thing if this doesn't work. I do have a quality buffer, same as many body shops use, but a buffer can cause other problems, such as swirl marks or scratches in the finish. I did color sand/compound/buff my last tractor, didn't really like the outcome. And, I have never seen buffed repairs on a car or truck that were not obvious. Thanks.

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B-maniac

03-11-2006 20:39:10




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to CNKS, 03-11-2006 17:43:45  
In all due respect,the reason you have never seen buffed paint or repairs that looked good on a car or truck is because the ones that are done right are undetectable. Every show car or truck that is worthy of the name "SHOW" has been sanded smooth and buffed,guaranteed! There are just as many "tricks of the trade" when it comes to this touchy operation as there are to painting itself. Like painting it takes an acquired feel along with the right equipment and the right products.For restorations on tractors AND cars I paint small amounts at a time. On cars2-3 panels at a time,max.and preferably OFF the car. With tractors since the parts are smaller (surface area) maybe 4-5 parts. It just lets you control EVERYTHING a lot better not to mention not a lot of fog in the area . I use bc/cc 98% 0f the time and if there are any nibs or dirt(hardly any since it dries almost instantly)you can sand them out in ten min. ,spot back over those areas and any time from 1 hr. to 1 day get on it with the clear. Here again,I apply a double coat of PPG DC 3000 clear/DCH 3085 cat. By doing 1 double coat without any air moving on a few parts at a time,I don't even get the buffer out. What few specks I might still get,I spot nib dry with 1500 paper on the tip of my finger then rub and polish by hand. I've worked at many new car dealerships and it's common for cars to come off the truck damaged and when done get put on the front row as NEW. They have to not only look perfect but they better MATCH perfect and they better LAST. So when you guys hear me recomending expensive products,this is where that comes from. You absolutely cannot match these newer pearls and tri-coat paint jobs with old tech. products.AND they are twice as user friendly to spray (with the right safety equip.)Paint and body products have progressed in leaps and bounds since I started in 1971. At least now you can guarantee the job more than 6 mos.Acrylic laquer-looked good after buffing-durability-0 (junk),Alkyd enamel-solid colors,2 yrs to fade out,metalics 1 yr., Acrylic Enamel without hardner,same as laquer, with gloss hardners,not bad-2yrs. wouldn't match at all, PPG bc/cc-dau 82 clear with dau-2 cat. using Deltron base coat,came out in 1985,best thing ever happened to auto paint,miles ahead of Dupont and others at the time. Along with this came catylized primers and surfacers (NO MORE SHRINKAGE AFTER 2 MONTHS) Everything chemically cured and chemically cross-linked together. Easy to spray,easy to repair,easy to match,looks beautiful and lasts. I know these are just tractors but I just can't go back 30 years once I've seen the best.I am trying my best to forget all this when I answer questions from DIYers. I try to remember when I was one,coach them from that level.I know how to make the low tech products look good,just not how to make them last or be user friendly to spray. I believe if they read what Rod,CNKS,myself and others write,they can pick and chose what's best in their situation and be better off for reading these posts. Thanks for listening,I know I get long to often.

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tommyw-5088

03-11-2006 07:29:42




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to CNKS, 03-10-2006 09:49:52  
the green scotch brite is too rough ,the red is about a 220 grit .also there is a grey (fine )scotch brite i have used grey at the body shop .i know clear and color mixing is on the p-sheet ,but i havent done that .i used to spray color then wait and sand with 800 then clear ,now i do it wet-on wet.alot easier and less work . one thing to remember ,the sand scratches wont show up right away ,they will apperar later when the paint (clear) has dried and sunk down into the scratches .when the paint is wet it bridges the scratches.,but to answer he question ,i would just clear the last coat with 100% clear ,if you want to color sand with 1500 and buff it out with 3-m super duty followed with finess -it. if they still make 2042 clear it is fast drying and will get you out of dust quick .

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CNKS

03-11-2006 11:25:50




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to tommyw-5088, 03-11-2006 07:29:42  
Thanks for the scotchbrite info, sounds like the gray one is the one to use if I don't want to sand. I have decided not to clear, just thought I would try it if I had to sand anyway. I'm more interested in removing the dust. I have a paint booth with good exhaust fans that I only run about half-speed. If my problem is dust, it is drawn in by the fans as I paint, then the paint goes over it. I see nothing actually "stuck" in the paint, it is all covered. I shut off the fans before exiting the booth. I'm going to use better intake filters and see if I can seal everything else. If that does not at least lessen the problem, then it is an application problem as I mentioned below. I'll get it figured out eventually.

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CNKS

03-10-2006 11:21:44




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to CNKS, 03-10-2006 09:49:52  
Forgot to ask a question -- If the answer is no it eliminates use of the clear. Will the 1:1 mix of the MTK:clear contain enough color to cover the scuff marks/sanding scratches in the previous MTK coat? If not can I use 1000-1500 grit, or do you not get enough gloss afterward? Should have asked this first. The base coat in BC/CC (which this really isn't) is not sanded is it?



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Rod (NH)

03-10-2006 16:45:53




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to CNKS, 03-10-2006 11:21:44  
CN,

I've never tried mixing the last coat of color with clear. I know that was done years ago and is indicated in the MTK tech sheet also, but I can't advise since I've never done it that way - with any paint. The way I've cleared MTK is just like another color coat but applied the following day instead of the normal flash time. You have up to 7 days to apply the clear but I like to get it on as soon as is reasonable. I wouldn't expect mixing clear in the last color coat would lighten the color since that has been common practice for many years and I've never read anything about it doing that. However, I really don't know. I have also never done any sanding prior to clearing so I don't know how any sandscratches would appear through clear - with any grit. I know that real basecoat is not sanded before clearing. If it is sanded, the recommendation that I've seen is to reapply more basecoat and then clear. If I were just going to sand the final color to remove dust nibs, etc, I'd use something like 600 grit, apply another coat of color and then clear - or, as you indicate, another coat of color mixed 1:1 with clear. My tendency would be the first, only because I've done it that way and know it works. I am unsure if the Scotch-Brite (I use the maroon, general purpose) will do the job with dust nibs - I've never tried it for that. You will get no gloss after 1000-1500 grit. You will need to compound to bring back any gloss.

I use the MC161. When I first looked into the OMNI clears, I asked about the MC160 at my jobber. He didn't carry that particular product at all. So I went with the MC161. I have been pleased with it. It sets up faster than the MTK. I did have a small orange peel problem the last time I used it. I may consider using a slower hardener (MH169 instead of MH168) and some of the MR189 retarder next time. Don't mix up more than you can use right away. They say a 3 hr pot life and they really mean it. The stuff dries to the touch in not much more than an hour (about 75deg). Several hours later, any leftovers will be jello. I wouldn't bother with the 260. That's more for shops that do spot repairs and want the fastest possible turnaround. I'd stick with 161 for everything. I wouldn't expect a lot of increase in gloss by clearing. There should be some, but it probably won't be as dramatic as you might want. It isn't for me, using 3 separate coats of clear. Plus you always run the risk of making things worse, as I did in that fender photo-essay that's on my website. It's not that bad, but it's definitely not as good as it was just before clearing. The clear is nice over decals though, especially the cut vinyl ones - at least I think so. Of course that wouldn't apply for mixing clear with the final color coat.

I suggest you try it on something scrap just to get an idea and evaluate any benefit for yourself. In all probablity, I think you'll decide to just sand the dust nibs with 400 or 600 grit, apply another coat of plain MTK and if the gloss is good, leave it at that. Either way, you run a risk of getting dust in that final coat, whatever it is. The main reason I'm clearing parts on my B is that I did so on the hood for the main decals and want other parts to have the same appearance. If it wasn't for the decals, I don't think I'd bother with the extra cost, effort and risk with the separate clearing work.

Not much help here - just my thoughts on your situation.

Rod

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CNKS

03-10-2006 17:44:26




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to Rod (NH), 03-10-2006 16:45:53  
You said about what I expected about the gloss. I will probably reconsider. Since I was going to sand anyway I thought I would try something different, but perhaps not. Also, I didn't mean that I was thinking of sanding with 1500 and leaving it, I was thinking that perhaps there would be less scratches to show through the 1:1 MTK:clear. Anyway, as to the dust, I examined some parts I painted several weeks ago, and I sanded them with 400 this afternoon, and I'm inclined to think that it is either solvent pop or blistering as per Sherwin Williams problem solving thing that you linked to, instead of dust, it could be some of each. Both of those indicate that inadequate flash time and/or too much paint in one application can cause it. I really don't think I have any water at all, I am running thru two water traps. The bumps or nibs don't break even after several weeks. Sanding does reveal craters when sanded level with the surface, sometimes a crater with a peak in it sort of like a bulls-eye. The spots are very small, but sometimes appear in clusters of 4 or 5. That could mean I got the gun too close in that spot, or it could be a cluster of dust or lint or something. Also the cured ones are VERY hard. They are not real noticeable, but I would like to eliminate them. They do not appear to be fisheyes, as my interpretation of fisheyes is a crater BEFORE sanding. I am using MH167 (fast) hardener with MR186 (medium) reducer. Although the weather here is starting to warm up, my shop temperature has always been 68-70 degrees each time I painted. Perhaps I should use the 168 hardener? Flash times are about 10 minutes, I usually recoat in 10-15 minutes. Since one of the causes is listed as inadequate flash time, maybe I should wait another 5 minutes. However flowout is very good with little orange peel. I may also be holding the gun too close, getting too much paint on--that will be a habit that is hard to break. I am going to repaint 2 or 3 small pieces with one coat of of MTK, or do a piece with two coats, and see if the 2 coats causes more defects than the one with only one coat -- that will mean either too thick or not enough flash time. I hate to change reducer speed or hardener at this temperature because of the good flowout I'm getting. I'm just thinking out loud -- am I missing something? It could be simply a dirty environment. I realize that such problems are hard to solve without seeing them. I got a car back from a "professional" body shop that looked worse than what I am doing -- I made him do it over, don't know how he corrected it, likley buffed it out -- which I really don't want to mess with.

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Rod (NH)

03-10-2006 19:50:54




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 Re: Clearing MTK in reply to CNKS, 03-10-2006 17:44:26  
Oops, misunderstood a bit there. I remember using 1200 grit a long time ago. It really dulled whatever gloss there was. I can't recall if there were resulting sandscratches that were visable to the naked eye or not. Perhaps not. Anyway, I really don't know how a clear would appear if applied directly to such a surface - I've never done it. I used the 1200 in spots on a hardened Centari that was going to get compounded anyway, not cleared. I've always used the 168 hardener. I tend to stay away from any of the fast products since I am almost never at the low end of the temperature ranges. I'd use the 168 even at 70. But if you are getting good flow out with the 167, there's no reason to change. It sounds to me like simple dirt you are experiencing. Maybe B--- will have some input if he sees.

Rod

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