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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Scuffing paint before sec. coat

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sven11

04-11-2006 05:45:12




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I have just finished painting a tractor using valspar IH red with hardener. It says to put a second coat on after 48 hours. My question is, will I have to scuff the paint since it will be rock hard by then. I have been told by some that you hava to scuff completely dry paint before a sec. coat to ensure proper adhesion and reduce the possibility of runs. Thanks for your comments




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Bmaniac

04-16-2006 15:14:29




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 Re: Scuffing paint before sec. coat in reply to sven11, 04-11-2006 05:45:12  
I too believe what it really says is to recoat after 48 hrs. you must sand first.What it should say is this. " If for some reason you need to recoat it after 48 hrs.,you need to sand it first" Most of these paint products say right on the can "for professional use only". Professionals know what the wording means but sometimes novices don't,and this is just the sort of problem you run into when this happens.Be sure and get all your questions answered BEFORE you paint not after!

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Rod (NH)

04-11-2006 17:34:27




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 Re: Scuffing paint before sec. coat in reply to sven11, 04-11-2006 05:45:12  
Hi Sven,

I have never used Valspar or IH paint so I can't address the specifics. However, I'll add to what CNKS says with some comments. I assume you are reading the can label when you say "It says to put a second coat on after 48 hours". Does it actually say to put a second coat on after 48 hours or that another coat may be put on after 48 hours. And is the wording specifically for the use with a hardener. There is a big difference if a hardener is not used. Many enamels used without hardener cannot be recoated soon after the intial dry without wrinkling and lifting of the preceeding paint film. The time to wait to avoid wrinkling can vary from a number of hours to several months, depending on the actual paint and solvents used. I suspect, but don't know, that the 48 hours you mention is a minimum waiting period for recoating when not using a hardener. I consider it unusual for any enamel paint to instruct the user to apply a second coat after 48 hours as a matter of standard recommended practice without additional information. From what I have seen and read about Valspar, they are short on specifics and confusing in their recommendations. As CNKS indicates, the only real reason for applying more paint after an intial dry is to correct problems. The idea or practice of applying additonal coats "later" without scuffing up the surface with either sandpaper or Scotch-Brite is a poor one that can lead to poor relative adhesion between coats. I'd try to put Valspar on the spot for a better definition of how to use their paint if you can find a way to contact them. Lacking that, I'd always scuff for additional paint, hardener or not.

third party image Rod

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CNKS

04-11-2006 18:11:03




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 Re: Scuffing paint before sec. coat in reply to Rod (NH), 04-11-2006 17:34:27  
You said it as I intended to say it, probably shouldn't even look at this site just before I have to do something else --fingers and brain don't communicate too well. Can you sand unhardened anything (except primer) after two days, except for maybe a very small spot?



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Rod (NH)

04-11-2006 20:08:01




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 Re: Scuffing paint before sec. coat in reply to CNKS, 04-11-2006 18:11:03  
Well, you've got me there since I've never tried it. I suppose it depends on the actual paint and the manufacturer's instructions. The PPG tech sheet for unhardened MAE indicates "Dry in 16 hours @ 70F to polish and put in service" I don't know how this compares with dealer paints but it would seem that they should be pretty dry (and dry enough to sand) in 48 hours. I did check the tech sheet for PPG's ALK 200 commercial acrylic modified alkyd (w/o hardener). That's probably fairly close in basic chemistry to the IH stuff. The ALK indicates "dry" in ten hours and recoat after 30 hours-4 days. It doesn't say anything about sanding or scuffing but I would certainly expect that you could, indeed should, scuff after the 30 hours if you were going to apply more paint. The thing you occasionally hear about paint not drying for days I suspect is the result of using incorrect ingredients or painting at abnormally low temperatures. I can't say I have ever seen reference to a maximum window for recoating of unhardened enamels w/o scuffing; similar to that which exits for hardened enamels to get a good chemical bond. It's always seem to be a minimum window to avoid lifting. I don't know how long one can go after the initial dry of typical unhardened enamel before scuffing is advisable prior to applying more paint - I've never seen any number recommended for that. If it was dry, I'd sand it before adding more.

On thing that should probably be mentioned in this thread is the use of the terms "coat" and "recoat". I believe the term coat is used for successive applications of paint with only short times (minutes) between them. A typical paint film represents two or three such coats. Each of these coats is applied before the preceeding one is dry. The term recoat is generally used to mean application of additional paint after the preceeding paint film has dried (even though it is not fully cured).

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CNKS

04-11-2006 06:18:22




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 Re: Scuffing paint before sec. coat in reply to sven11, 04-11-2006 05:45:12  
After rereading your question and my answer (as usual I was in a hurry) there is a slight addition or correction to my answer. Yes you do have to scuff "completely dry" paint to get adhesion. But as to your paint, if it says to scuff it after 48 hours, then do so. If it does not say, I would assume you don't have to. I don't know how will it will sand unless you used hardener --- depends on the paint.

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CNKS

04-11-2006 06:02:08




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 Re: Scuffing paint before sec. coat in reply to sven11, 04-11-2006 05:45:12  
Hindsight is 20/20. What you should have done is put all coats on within about an hour, allowing each individual coat to "flash" before applying the next one. The time between coats depends on the particular paint and the temperature. Probably 3 or 4 coats with that paint. The 48 hours is if you decide to recoat due to some mistake you have to sand out. If you used hardener, you should probably sand it with 4-600, the put the rest of the coats on as described above. If you did not use hardener you have to wait until you can sand it. I have never sanded unhardened paint because I don't use it. The better paints, which that one isn't can be sanded and recoated the next day -- another reason for using quality paint. The scuffing between coats to prevent runs is for those of us who do not have a good painting technique--that is something that has to be learned.

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