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CNKS...

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davpal

05-12-2006 10:22:00




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I would basically like to know who you are to bad mouth people on this board doing painting and trying to give helpful advice to people? You need to calm down a little bit and put the painting books away. A lot of people on this board are farmers who use their equipment and are not going to put a $3500 dollar basecoat clearcoat paintjob on a $900 dollar Farmall H. People are trying to make their equipment last a little longer and make it look a little better and yes sometimes a tractor or implement can get a little scratched up. Have you ever farmed? Ever tried planting along a woods with the branches hitting the tractor? I have know many body men who have worked in dealerships for hundreds of combined years who have painted basecoat clearcoat with a charcoal mask every day. I saw Boyd Coddington painting a car on tv the other day with one on. Just like the advice you are insisting on spray guns. I have three spray guns for our farm and none were over $100 dollars and they all work very good. Do people need a $375 dollar spray gun to paint a 9n? I really don't think so. Tsc paint is $19.99 a gallon and worth every penny. PPG or Dupont are $300 dollars a gallon and worth every penny( on a $40,000 dollar new car). My friend who put the imron on my car was a GM dealership painter who used a charcoal mask all day at work putting on baseclear but did not want to put on the imron without an air supply which we installed in his paint booth so don't rant at me about what he does or doesn't know. He also paited show cars at home in his spare time. It is also about priorities and I try to cover food, heat, mortgage, lights, car, insurances, healthcare, phone,etc. The painting (hobby) is a long way down that priority list as is sitting on this computer talking to people like you. Get out of the hobby shop once in a while. All those paint fumes are clouding your judgement.

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LBH

05-19-2006 18:33:01




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to davpal, 05-12-2006 10:22:00  
I am a novice painter and I highly value what Rod and CNKS have to say. THey both have really helped me out especially to due the safe away. I value their opinion and hope they conitue to give great advice.



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Jason(ma)

05-12-2006 17:30:40




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to davpal, 05-12-2006 10:22:00  
your life, your stuff, do as you wish.



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CNKS

05-12-2006 17:26:53




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to davpal, 05-12-2006 10:22:00  
If I don't think the advice is correct, then I will state my opinion. The person asking the question then has another opinion to consider. Where I grew up (South Texas) there weren't many trees, in western Kansas where I live now except along our "rivers" there are no trees, any trees elsewhere were planted. But the few I have been around, I try to avoid. I am retired, 68 years old, and have a PhD in Soil Science, doesn't mean diddly about paint. I grew up on a farm, and have been involved in agriculture all my life. I did my homework before I started painting 5 years ago. I stand by what I said, I don't consider it badmouthing, I simply have a different opinion, based on the information I have read and also that from experienced people whom I respect. I don't do $3500 paint jobs. The PPG topcoat and primers cost about $300. I use good equipment because I want something I can depend on. Everytime I buy a cheap piece of equipment, I wish I had spent more money for a better one. This is a painting forum, I interpret that to mean people want to know how to paint. Anyone and perhaps his dog can paint with TSC paint and a cheap gun. To me this forum means recommending the best products and procedures within reason. If everyone wants to use TSC or Van Sickle or Rustoleum, or most tractor dealer paints, this forum would not need to exist. Just paint over all the crud like was done with some of the tractors I have purchased since I started this hobby. I wouldn't use tractor store paint if they gave it away. I don't believe in cheap paint jobs, rust looks better, and doesn't scratch as bad, either. There is a person on the Farmall board that painted a Farmall 300 in a half day, including "prep". Promptly went and and ran into a tree and scratched it. Was proud of it. Posted a picture of his newly painted tractor and everyone told him how beautiful it was. I have painted just enough to know better. Iso's have been proven to be a health problem, that is why I tell people to get supplied air. Those who use charcoal masks will eventually have problems, if they don't die from something else first. For some reason the old timers are the ones who don't think they need supplied air, and are the most resistant to change. I have coped with change my entire life. As to the painter on TV, TV and magazines are the worst place in the world to learn to paint. And, as to your 2nd sentence about painting books, I don't read them, as a lot of the information is incorrect, or at best misleading. I do read the paint spec sheets. When I started I asked every question that has ever been asked. This forum did not exist then, but I found a knowledgeble person much like Rod(NH), a hobby painter who knows what he is doing. Thus I learned to paint by email. Far as I'm concerned, everything he told me to do works.

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davpal

05-12-2006 21:18:07




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to CNKS, 05-12-2006 17:26:53  
I think what I was trying to get across is nobody needs to listen to your sarcastic overtones every time somebody has a suggestion on this board. Look back through your posts. You almost always have something negative to say about every thing anybody suggests other than yourself. You have been painting for 5 years. That means you haven't been painting for 63 years. I have been painting for 30 years. I am much younger but have a lot more seat time painting than you do. This is not a Dupont or PPG sponsered board. It is a open forum where people ask questions about paint. A man asked about Agco paint and if people have used it. I have, you have not. You have no opinion on it. That is what I mean. As far as toxic ingredients, I work in a place that has chrome tanks, trichlor, mineral oils, cutting coolants, all kinds of heavy metals, the carpeting in your house is toxic, the chemicals in your kitchen are deadly. Hairspray is toxic. The computer monitor you are using is radiating your face. As far as anybody can paint with crud tsc paint and a cheap gun, I actually find it much easier to paint with expensive paint because any idiot that can read instructions on a label can paint with base coat clear coat. It is more idiot proof than staight enamel because you can wheel it out when you are done screwing it up. People need to hear from other people who are doing painting whether you think it is proper or not. I have three vehicals whith beautiful basecoat clear coat PPG Paint jobs and One with Imron so I know a few things about paint. I also paint about ten implement related items a year for farm or tractor related items and some custom snowmobile paint jobs. You are trying to put yourself on a pedestal by advocating expensive products when the real talent in any paint work is not the gun or the paint or all the talk but the man behind the paint brush or paint gun.

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Rod (NH)

05-13-2006 07:03:34




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to davpal, 05-12-2006 21:18:07  
You certainly have a way with words don't you davpal? I assume because you've had 30 years painting experience you have at least read the fine print on a hardener label. Since you use clears and Imron you must have come across the term isocyanate at one time or another. You seem to be dismissive of the need for supplied-air when spraying materials containing such compounds, but your position is not clear to me. Perhaps I am misreading your posts but it seems that you feel a regular cartridge mask is fully satisfactory for anyone in that instance. If that is true, you certainly have every right to present your own experienced opinion to that effect. However, I think you are doing the readers of this forum a disservice by not supporting that opinion with something more substantial than "many bodymen do it" or "I saw someone on TV". The painting industry experience (also over 30 years) on this subject is overwhelming so published supporting information from recognized authorities should be easy to link to. What exactly does an experienced painter like yourself recommend to novices for their respiratory protection when using iso-containing paints?

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EX-pro

05-13-2006 08:38:24




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to Rod (NH), 05-13-2006 07:03:34  
"What exactly does an experienced painter like yourself recommend to novices for their respiratory protection when using iso-containing paints?" The practice that I used when I painted at a GM dealership is the same as I use today. Disposable 3M respirators. The activated charcoal is good for about 48 Hrs. Every paint job gets a new respirator sometimes two.



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CNKS

05-13-2006 14:04:49




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to EX-pro, 05-13-2006 08:38:24  
EX-pro -- Yes, charcoal masks will filter iso's or so I have been told. I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking it up, but I don't think 3M recommends it. To me charcoal is charcoal. Gempler's catalog, which has a LOT of safety equipment sells charcoal masks for "organic compounds including paint, EXCEPT those containing iso's", or something to that effect. Change in 48 hours?. I can smell fumes from non-iso primers far in advance of that. And I only paint 5 minutes or less at a time and keep the mask in a bag between times, or at least take it with me outside my painting area. Also, the mask has to fit perfectly. Your dealership likely had a downdraft paint booth. If so it likely removed the fumes below the "10X above the permissible VOC limit", whatever that is. Your dealership may have had a way to measure that. Hobbiests don't. But, if you used a new mask for each paint job and they fit perfectly, that is why they work. My problem with charcoal is threefold. 1. I started getting sick once when spraying iso's without supplied air. 2. I do not trust my nose to tell me when the charcoal is about spent. My understanding is that iso's themselves have little or no odor, thus my nose is not reliable. I used to work in a chemistry (soil test) lab in the 60's, breathed ammonium hydroxide, sulfuric, perchloric, and hydrochloric acid fumes, thus my nasal passages are about shot anyway. Not to mentioned the pesticides I sprayed for 20 something years with no protection. If anyone should have health problems, it's me -- I don't. 3. It takes me weeks to do a complete job because I disassemble everything, and I don't want to spend $25 or so for a disposable one each day, or $12-$15 for replaceable filters. In a body shop you can do that, it is built into the price. I would rather use my supplied air system and use my money for good paint and materials. I agree with Rod that a persons health is his own business, but that he should not advertise unsafe practices to unsuspecting people that read this forum -- THAT is my primary gripe, not what you or Dave actually do -- that is your business.

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EX-pro

05-13-2006 15:01:17




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to CNKS, 05-13-2006 14:04:49  
The more I read, the more I wonder. Are the ISO's contained in the VOC's or the solids. Are you wearing your supplied air when you mix paint, clean guns or sand primer? Are you sure the gloves you wear block ISO's. Do you ever get paint contact on your skin? These are sources of ISO exposure also. Asthma and dermatitis are the effects of exposure. I will concede that supplied air has the potential to be a healthier choice for the professional, but I stop short of telling the first timer or hobbyist that they must have it to spray ISO's and if they do have it they are totally safe from ISO's.

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CNKS

05-13-2006 17:31:54




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to EX-pro, 05-13-2006 15:01:17  
Supplied air is the only sure way to protect your lungs. Iso's are attracted to moisture, that means your eyes, so you need a full mask or a hood. I always wear gloves when I paint and should wear a long sleeve shirt. I usually wear short sleeves, but have a long sleeve one that I sometimes forget to put on. I should wear a tyvec suit. I felt the effects the first time I used iso's without supplied air. I was using a touch up gun to squirt here and there on some wheels to get spots I missed, wearing a charcoal mask. So my recommendation is that all painters without a booth that gets the VOC's to the proper level to wear one. With my lungs, eyes and skin protected, I consider myself safe. But yes I have had contact on my skin when I forget to wear something. I do not know about the protection of different kinds of gloves, I use disposable ones, not saying they are foolproof. I'm not saying anything I wear except the hood is foolproof, I believe it gives adequate protection. I have not worn supplied air when sanding primer, I notice in your PDF file that wet sanding is considered safe, dry sanding is not. The dry sanding part surprises me, I would like to see that documented somewhere else as I have never heard that before. I have ordered an air sander, going to use 1500 and 3000 grit to color sand. But I consider supplied air or a SCBA system to be totally safe as far as lungs and eyes. The supplied air intake has to be outside the painting area if painting inside, or downwind from the place you are painting if outside. Actually I wear a charcoal mask under my hood, even though I have a paint booth. The odor does get outside the booth, as I am running the fans at low speed to try to cut down on air movement and the contaminants the air carries. I do not have a professional booth ($$$$$) and I want some protection when I leave the booth, although my preference is to leave the building between coats. After the last coats I usually leave the fans on while cleaning the gun outside the building. Iso's are the one thing I don't mess with. I have a lot of respect for them.

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CNKS

05-13-2006 17:35:30




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to CNKS, 05-13-2006 17:31:54  
Whoops, supplied air intake UPwind from where you paint.



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CNKS

05-13-2006 17:35:23




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to CNKS, 05-13-2006 17:31:54  
Whoops, supplied air intake UPwind from where you paint.



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Rod (NH)

05-13-2006 15:35:20




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to EX-pro, 05-13-2006 15:01:17  
Isocyanates are contained in hardeners and activators used in enamels (mostly optional) and in urethanes (mostly required). They are not VOCs. Volatile organic compunds (VOCs) are regulated from an evironmental air emission standpoint where isocyanates are regulated from a health-safety standpoint. There are VOCs in all solvents used in paint as well as in the paint itself. Totally unrelated to isos and hardeners/activators. Agreed about skin exposure. Eyes are even more important to be protected. I use nitrile gloves, which I understand are satisfactory for short term exposure. They do come apart after repeated exposure to solvents but not as fast as the latex ones do - those are pretty much useless. I don't wear my supplied air facepiece during mixing but admit I probably should. You won't find me spraying without it although I do use a cartridge respirator when spraying epoxy primer, which is iso-free despite being a two part product. The use of supplied air is not limited to painting. It also makes perfect sense to use while sandblasting. Can't beat it.

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EX-pro

05-13-2006 17:25:03




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to Rod (NH), 05-13-2006 15:35:20  
If ISO's are not in the VOC's(The fumes), they must be contained in the solids. That makes since if you can be exposed via dry sanding. If you can be exposed other ways than spraying, supplied air should not be used as a blanket sloution for ISO saftey.I have always heard(For what it's worth)the real danger is in the carcenigens contained in the VOC's which the activeted carbon consumes and the carcenigens in the liquids which proper handeling should take care of.

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Rod (NH)

05-13-2006 09:41:49




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to EX-pro, 05-13-2006 08:38:24  
I take it then you also recommend such a practice to others, particularly to DIYs in a home shop environment? Are you aware of 3M's specific recommendations concerning their cartridges and isocyanates? Can you provide any supportive links that formally recommend such a practice? I am not questioning your experience but I do believe you are setting a poor example for others in light of voluminous documented recommendations to the contrary by recognized safety agencies and manufacturers. I hope that, unlike davpal, you will not take respectful disagreement as bad mouthing. Such is not the case. I respect anyone's personal decision regarding their own health-safety. Where I am in strong disagreement is when people presume to make such a personal decision for others, based on their own experience but without reference to any recognized authority, and when the formal evidence is overwhemingly to the contrary.

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EX-pro

05-13-2006 10:42:31




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to Rod (NH), 05-13-2006 09:41:49  
Wouldn't hesitate to recommend to the occasional painter that a properly used mask will be fine. Especially one tractor painted outside like is usually the case. I would like to read what you are referring to about 3M, as this is still the current practice used in most body shops today. Putting acceptable practices down in righting is risky business for chemical companies, but I’ll look for supportive info. No bad mouthing implied or taken.

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EX-pro

05-13-2006 11:44:40




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to EX-pro, 05-13-2006 10:42:31  
I still don't believe that supplied air should be tauted as the safe way to deal with iso's
Asthma due to
respiratory sensitisation and dermatitis are the two primary health concerns associated with
isocyanates. Non-spraying tasks currently regarded as more likely to cause
significant isocyanate exposure are: baking; spray-gun cleaning and dry-
sanding. ISO's don't cause cancer. Most paint labels say long term exposure causes brain cancer. Is it the ISO's that get you or something else?

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Rod (NH)

05-13-2006 15:14:06




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to EX-pro, 05-13-2006 11:44:40  
I read your link. Thanks. It seems to be a survey of user hazard awareness rather than any specific agency recommendation. I didn't find any specific conclusion except that more awareness efforts are recommended. I think all references were to professional spray booths and did notice a passing reference to supplied air in a booth. Also passing references to filters but nothing specific. As far as 3M goes, I have noticed they recently (in the last couple of years I think) in their respirator selection guide are now recommending one of their cartridges for typical isocyanate compounds using a negative pressure, air purifying respirator - but only under very specific conditions: 1) the actual airborne concentration must be known, 2) that the concentration can be no more than 10 times the standard permissible exposure level of 0.005 ppm, 3) that N95 prefilters must be used and 4) a cartridge change schedule as promulgated by the OSHA be implemented. Of course proper fit testing is presumed which would preclude anyone with facial hair from using such a respirator. The bottom of page 6 is particularly relevant. This is, of course, from the maker of the filters who obviously has a vested interest in sales. They certainly do not "certify" any cartridge safe for isos and as far as I know, no one does. In any event, such provisions are not really in the realm of the DIY to even begin to properly evaluate. Pro body shops usually have a professional paint spray booth that has had a complete industrial hygiene survey done by an independent agency who confirms proper airflow and measures airborne concentration levels in the painters breathing zone in order to establish baseline exposure levels - a much different situation.

OSHA has a lot of linked material relative to isocyanates. They have a lot of regulations applicable to body shops that is interesting but not really reasonable to implement for most DIY operations. NIOSH is one of the key agencies who develop and recommend permissible exposure levels although I don't believe they have any actual regulatory authority. HDI is one of the several isocyanate compounds used in paint hardeners and activators. From what I have seen and read about others, HDI is pretty much typical of them all. They seem to be treated as a family of hazardous compounds. NIOSH has published this on HDI. They recommend supplied air even when exposures are less than the generally accepted one (0.005 ppm). More from NIOSH here. They clearly recommend supplied air even inside a well operating professional booth. Similarly on HDI, the New Jersey Department of Public Health has this to say.

Still more from NIOSH here with the following excerpted text:

Whenever there is potential for exposure
to diisocyanates, even concentrations
below the NIOSH REL, NIOSH recommends
that employees be supplied with
supplied-air respiratory protection.
(Negative pressure air-purifying respirators
are not recommended since
diisocyanates have poor odor warning
properties.) Also, there should be a
respiratory protection program.

The California Department of Health Services has this to say. The Saskatchewan Department of Labor has this to say. PPG's official position is here. DuPont's is similar and explicit in their applicable MSDS.

I personally think the evidence for supplied air when using iso-containing materials is overwhelming despite some pro painter's insistence to the contrary. I also think that it may be even more important for the DIY than for the pro painter who works in a booth. There are more unknowns and variables with a DIY, even when he works outside. Pro painter's opinions are important and I respect them. However, I will always give more weight to the independent agencies who have the actual responsibility for recommending safe work practices for all. I'll certainly agree that the paint manufacturer's are generally conservative in their recommendations. They have every reason to be. What gets me is the whole thing is so easy to correct. No DIY has to use hardeners when painting his tractor. It's entirely optional. There are alternative paints that do not require them. Inferior you say? Sure they are. But they were perfectly satisfactory before isos were ever developed and can be put to good use today. Indeed, they are as good, sometimes better than the original OEM paint that was used on most vintage tractors. If someone wants to get better performance from paint, they can evaluate the health risks for themselves as well as the cost of the excellent protection provided by supplied air. Arguments over iso exposure levels are academic anyway. It's simply too easy just to go with supplied air and have little further concern about the whole matter. I learned that the hard way for myself a long time ago. Best money I ever spent. But to each his own.

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davpal

05-13-2006 10:09:39




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to Rod (NH), 05-13-2006 09:41:49  
Guys, I was not trying to start a war on painting. Just trying to give a little help to people who have never done it. I think the argument over masks vs fresh air supplies could go on in every aspect of life. Let me ask this? Do you wear a fresh air supply when you put annhydrous ammonia on your corn? It is a deadly gas that will drop you dead in minutes if you are caught in it. How about when you burn a little plastic in your burn barrel? Are you wearing your fresh air supply when you burn all those plastic oil jugs with all the highly deadly smoke coming off it. Probably not. I do most of my painting outside if I can with a charcoal mask. It is not the "best case scenerio" but it is better than painting inside. Bottom line is people know how to read and they know the warnings on any label. This is not a Dupont or PPG web site. It is a internet (discussion) forum where people state their opinions whether they are right or wrong. I see a lot of people telling guys how to fix something and they are trying to help. It is up to the person on the other end to make correct judgements about their health a welfare on safety items such as masks, jackstands, chains, riggings, towstraps etc. I know you guys know how to paint. I was just trying to help.

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Rod (NH)

05-13-2006 17:42:53




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to davpal, 05-13-2006 10:09:39  
Davpal,

Understand. Everyone here is trying to help others. Agreed this is not a PPG or DuPont promo site. However the issues about isocyanates are applicable to all other manufacturers also. I refer to both PPG and DuPont only because I have used some of their products and am familiar with them. Other manufacturers such as MS, SW, BASF, Valspar, etc. make equally good products but I am unable to discuss them in detail because I have never used them. I can read and understand their tech sheets but I have no personal experience with actually using their products. I do agree with CNKS though that as far as basic paint chemistry goes, one can make some observations without having used the product. Alkyds are alkyds and urethanes are urethanes no matter who makes them. And in general, the price increases as the performance does. If alkyds presented similar performance to urethanes, the auto OEMs would still be using them since they are cheaper. Yes, I agree that it is up to the person on the other end to evaluate the safety issues involved with any procedure or product. Many DIYs however may not be that familiar with automotive paints and the additives to be used. That's not their fault. They may have never heard of isocyanates, MSDS, tech sheets, 2K products etc simply because they are not familiar with automotive paints. From that perspective it makes sense to me that when recommendations are made to obvious novices, that they also be reminded about the safety issues involved with hardeners. They don't have to take my recommendations or anyone elses. They are free to do as they please. But at least they will be made aware of a potential problem. To blindly recommend adding hardener to a paint to "make it better" to an obvious novice is doing them no service at all without also advising about the special health-safety protection that is normally recommended. Some professionals have always used a cartridge mask and swear by them, even for isos. Different people are effected differently. Some may have no reactions at all. Others, like myself, may have severe reactions the first time out. It only took me two cars without supplied air to get off my rear end and spend the money for it. Perhaps that's just me being unlucky but I like to be able to breathe freely after using that stuff. A couple of nights with abnormal shortness of breath and coughing can focus the mind a lot. The better paint performance is not worth it if one has to endure that. Perhaps that's why I am a stickler for recommending supplied air to novices. I know first hand what is possible and how to easily avoid it. Others will be more fortunate and can get by with cartridges indefinitely. In any event - peace!

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CNKS

05-13-2006 06:24:27




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to davpal, 05-12-2006 21:18:07  
I apologize for making the comment that anyone can paint with TSC. I agree that the better paints are easier to use. I have not used alkyd enamel, don't need to, as I have had new vehicles and repainted tractors that had it and I know it does not last. I traded a 1992 GMC pickup in 2005 with base/clear urethane, far as I'm concerned it did not fade, although it was in sunlight (garaged at night) the first 9 years of it's life. I am not being sarcastic -- Whether or not I have used Agco or not is not important -- the type of paint is. If Agco is alkyd enamel, the only way to make it last is to put the tractor inside when not in use, and wax it. I'm not saying it will fall off. That is the point I try to make when answering questions. It is also why I try to explain the differences in paint to people who do not know. Not all paints are the same. Many people who have not painted before see implement enamel in a farm store for $20 a gallon and wonder why on earth they should spend $80-$100/gal for good paint. I did too until I began to study the situation and ask questions just as they do. I try to steer people to paints that are higher quality than alkyd, such as "acrylic modified" alkyd and acrylic enamel that can be used without hardener if desired.

Hardener does increase gloss, but it does not prevent fading. There are toxic chemicals all around us. People should protect themselves whenever they can. Isocyanates are one of the worst, and can be deadly -- but you can protect yourself from them. Chemicals that may be dangerous that we encounter in everyday life, you can't protect yourself from unless you live in a bubble.

As you have noticed, I am somewhat of a blunt person -- I will continue to attempt to explain the differences between paints -- I don't need 30 years of experience to do that, I have observed it first hand on the vehicles I have bought, beginning with a 1954 Plymouth, ending with a 2005 GMC pickup. The difference is remarkable. You will note that I have never actually told people HOW to paint -- just what to use.

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B-maniac

05-19-2006 20:44:06




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to Broomstacker, 05-12-2006 15:08:08  
Ditto to all the above. My paint and body career started in 1970 when I begged a local body shop to let me work for free just to learn it. Reguardless of how it is worded in this forum, the advice and knowlege given by the likes of CNKS,Rod NH, myself and others is priceless to someone atempting his first tractor as well as the one wanting to do a better job than his last tractor was. I can't speak for them, but I would have killed to have had this kind of information just waiting at my fingertips back when I got started. Ya know, this is just a computer screen so if the wording of,or the advice or answer given offends or hurts someones ego , then they have the option to shut it off and go on their merry way,,,or,,,they can put their pride aside and learn anything they need to know. We are not trained public speakers,we are paint and body technicions that are still learning ourselves,but are willing to share anything we know.I believe that for every one person that takes offense at our posts,there are 100 that bennefit and that's what keeps us answering posts even when we get slapped. ROD,CNKS and others,keep up the good work and I might even kick in a little from time to time if you don't mind. Thanks Again,"B"

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Engineer20

05-12-2006 17:03:35




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 Re: CNKS... in reply to Broomstacker, 05-12-2006 15:08:08  
Paul,
That was an excellent post!



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