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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

tackling a paint job on massey 65

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John Bick

05-14-2006 10:24:38




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This is my first ever tractor fix up...first ever tractor for that matter. I am starting to clean up the little parts like headlamp tubs, etc... I will be slow and working between two regular jobs, so I want to know how to protect a few parts at a time without having to mix and waste the expensive epoxy each time. Can I use a primer from a spray can till I get enough parts clean for a bigger shot with the epoxy? I am not shooting for a show quality tractor...I will be using the old gal for a little lite bushhogging and grading, but I have never painted before and I am trying to sift thru the information on this site. I hope you guys can help a greenhorn, I promise you there will be lots more questions before I get done.

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Rod (NH)

05-14-2006 17:31:34




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 Re: tackling a paint job on massey 65 in reply to John Bick, 05-14-2006 10:24:38  
Hi John,

I don't think you should bother with a rattle can spray primer at all. But I do think you should use a two part epoxy. In my opinion you just cannot get a better bare metal primer. The PPG OMNI MP170 that CNKS mentions is a good choice. Even though it is a two part product, it is free from isocyanate compounds so a standard cartridge respirator is satisfactory. You can use a phosphoric acid-based product such as the Picklex 20 for preservation or apply a coat of epoxy direct right away. I've done it both ways but prefer the epoxy as soon as I can get it on unless there are other considerations.

I wouldn't worry too much about waste. There is always going to be more wasted when you do things piecemeal at different times. You can minimize it though. With the epoxy, if you go beyond the recoat time window (3 days for the 170, others are different), you really should scuff-sand and apply another coat at such a time that you can apply your top coat within the new window. That sounds a lot more difficult and wasteful than it is. I always like to use two coats of epoxy anyway so one coat to preserve and another coat just prior to topcoating doesn't represent significant additional waste to me. I also do small batches of parts at a time so I mix up small amounts of paint at a time. A spot gun is great for such things but if you don't have one, there is an alternative that would do the trick for a preservative coat of two-part epoxy. Look into the Preval Sprayer. The powerheads are only about $4 in a paint store and they can be used directly from a small paper cup. I've used one with the 170 epoxy for spotting purposes. I used a tablespoon as a measuring device (the mix is 2 parts epoxy to 1 part catalyst - others may be different) and a 3oz paper bathroom cup. I'd have no problem doing small parts like a typical headlight housing that way. The spray is soft, a little softer than a typical rattle can. I wouldn't want to attempt a bunch of large pieces with it but for the purpose you are describing, you might want to at least give it a try. The price certainly is right. And cleanup is a snap - just throw the paper cup away, turn the power head upside down and clear the suction tube and spray head just like you'd do with a rattle can.

When I go to apply my second coat of epoxy at a later time, I just scuff the part(s) with a general purpose (maroon) Scotch-Brite hand pad, apply the epoxy and proceed, either with a surfacer or with a topcoat. You should have no problems with compatibility issues by putting the topcoat (or surfacer) of your choice over the 170 when it comes time. As CNKS told you, there are other epoxies from other manufacturers but all are a little different in one respect or another. Typically, the recoat time windows will be different but I think the most important thing for you to verify with other products is that the catalyst for the product does not contain isocyanates. It's unlikely with epoxies but it should be verified anyway since there can be some surprises out there. If you need help in such a determination, post back here and someone will likely assist you.

You should have no concerns about preservation with a coat of epoxy, no matter how long you take to finish the part(s). I've had parts I painted with only epoxy (2 coats though) left outside in the rain and snow continuously for many years with no rust showing or other evidence of coating failure.

Good luck, take your time and have fun painting your tractor. As Rusty says, don't get discouraged and lose interest. You'll get there eventually as long as you keep plugging away at it.

Rod

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John Bick

05-15-2006 07:11:14




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 Re: tackling a paint job on massey 65 in reply to Rod (NH), 05-14-2006 17:31:34  
Thanks for the advice folks. My next trip to town will be to get the epoxy primer and I will defiinetly be buying PPG without ISO's. I have an email into the Preval company for supplier locations. That really sounds interesting to me and worth a try. If I don't try that product I will definitely be buying a touch up gun as well. As for waste, I understand that I will have more than a dedicated start to finish restorer would, but your tips should help me a lot. Now another question. You refer to a surfacer. For the "wet behind the ears" painter, are you talking about sandable filler primers? A local fellow suggested that for the larger sheet metal, I could prep and spray them with epoxy, and then do any body work right over the epoxy, thereby protecting them after stripping the paint.

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Rod (NH)

05-15-2006 18:45:03




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 Re: tackling a paint job on massey 65 in reply to John Bick, 05-15-2006 07:11:14  
John,

The terms "sandable filler primer", "primer surfacer" and "surfacer" all refer to a heavily bodied product that is applied in multiple coats and then sanded down significantly. Their purpose is to provide a filling function for minor imperfections such as sandscratches coarser than about 400 grit. The term primer used together with the terms filler or surfacer implies a product that serves a dual purpose of primer for bare metal and filling minor imperfections at the same time. By contrast, the epoxy primer is considered a non-sanding primer for bare metal and does not perform as significant a filling function as a filler or a surfacer. It can be sanded but not as easily as a surfacer. Surfacers and primer surfacers sand very easily. In fact they are intended to be sanded, usually with something like 220 initially and 400 or finer finally. I prefer to use the single term surfacer for such a product as I like to shy away from products that are marketed to perform more than one function. In short, I believe a primer surfacer does not provide as good a product for priming bare metal as a dedicated product like epoxy does. Don't plan on using a Preval sprayer for applying a surfacer. That sprayer is not intended for that and I think the material is too thick for it. A spot (touch-up) gun will apply it, although not as well as a gun with a larger tip intended for the heavier material. In any event, you are not looking for a great smooth surface at this point since you will be sanding 80-90% of the surfacer off anyway. I have applied surfacer with my spot gun (1.0mm tip) and didn't worry about it. I wouldn't do that on something as broad as a typical automobile hood, but I have done so on my AC-B tractor hood since it is much smaller.

Also don't bother with a surfacer on the cast - it's not generally worth the bother and the sanding effort that would be required. Save the surfacer operation for the sheet metal that you want to have a nice smooth glossy result after the topcoat. I assume you are trying to avoid nasty isocyanates. That's commendable if you don't wish to go to the extra expense of a supplied-air breathing system. The PPG OMNI MP181 that CNKS mentions would be a good choice for you for a surfacer product. Alternatively, DuPont's 131S, Fil-N-Sand, would also be appropriate. As has been brought up previously, this is not a PPG or DuPont promo site and I am not a shill for either company. I only mention these because I have used them in the past personally, am familiar with them and can verify they work. I now use a hardened surfacer (isos), but I also have supplied-air breathing equipment. What you want, in order to avoid isos, is a lacquer-type surfacer, sometimes just referred to as an acrylic surfacer or acrylic primer surfacer. They are fast drying products that do not require a hardener additive. If anyone else knows of such a surfacer from another company that they have had experience with and can recommend to you, I encourage them to do so.

Relative to body work: Your local fellow's suggestion was entirely appropriate. That's how I do it. There can be a legitimate difference of opinion as to whether to apply body filler before or after epoxy. I prefer to apply it after epoxy because I usually want to get the epoxy on as soon as the bare metal is ready for it. I suggest you do any rough metal work, like banging out dents, etc. prior to any epoxy. You should strive to get the metal as close as to where it should be within at least 1/8" and preferably within about 1/16". Apply the epoxy and then the plastic filler. Once you begin to sand the filler down, you probably will cut through the epoxy to bare metal in some areas around the repair area. That's OK. Just spot the area using the Preval and some more epoxy and continue. I would apply any plastic filler within the time window of the epoxy (3 days after initial application with 170). BTW, for the sheet metal that you are going to use a surfacer on, if you can apply the surfacer within that window of the epoxy, I'd apply two coats of epoxy right off and then apply several coats of surfacer. You can sand the surfacer later, even months later if you want, without wholesale reapplication of the epoxy.

Regarding the epoxy, if you get the 170, don't forget the required MP175 catalyst that is used with it. The tech sheet is for the 170 is here. You can now get it in three different colors but I prefer the standard gray. Note the 15 minute induction period. That means that you let it set for about 15 minutes after initial mixing before appling it. Stir it well, both just after mixing and again before application. Also note the pot life of 8 hours. After that time, the mixed product will not be usable. The following day it will be like jello, so don't mix up more than you think you will use at one time. I also suggest you pick up a dedicated wax and grease remover. I use PPG DX-330 but there are others. Here's a good description of how to properly use those products, which is not always indicated on the can labels.

You should be able to get a Preval at the same place you get the 170. I've also seen them in some auto parts stores.

Don't become discouraged if you wind up having to apply plastic filler or a surfacer product multiple times. That's usually the case for me. I never seem to get it "good enough" the first time. Don't try to fill rust pits more than a very few thousandths deep with a surfacer. Deeper ones require special attention or you'll be there forever. On your sheet metal you should strive for getting the smoothest possible surface. It needs to be nearly glass-smooth because any little imperfection will be magnified once the color coats are applied. Obviously there may come a point where you just call it quits and paint it. That happens to me and for a working tractor there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Remember the fifty (or is it 20?) foot rule: From 50 ft away, most anything will look good. If your's is going to be a working tractor, you probably don't care about others critically inspecting it close up. I've been very pleased even when my result is something less than I would like it to be. Don't get hung up on perfection. It's not somebody else's Mercedes and you have only yourself to please. Your first paint job is a learning experience so treat it as such.

Rod

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CNKS

05-15-2006 07:45:30




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 Re: tackling a paint job on massey 65 in reply to John Bick, 05-15-2006 07:11:14  
A local hardware store here sells the Preval -- I orderd the one I have, but I believe they have become more common since then. There are various types of "filler primer". If you are using PPG products and want a non-iso one get MP 181 primer surfacer. If you are going to use supplied air, get MP 182 surfacer. The 181 can shrink into sanding scratches, the extent of which I don't know since I have not used it. The 181 is known as "lacquer primer", 182 is a urethane primer, it uses hardener, the 181 does not. The 181 can be used on bare metal, but you are still better off using epoxy first-I usue epoxy under everything. The 182 needs rather extensive surface prep if applied to bare metal, but is foolproof over epoxy. There are many brands, PPG is the only one I have used. It is best to stick with the same brand of product throughout. If you use the 181, let it cure good before you sand, to minimize the shrink after sanding. This can be a problem if you have a very rough surface. In theory 181 and 182 will fill 80 grit sanding scratches, I believe I have filled worse than that with 182, but it took a couple of times to get that far. I do sometimes see scratches through my topcoat, at that point in time I can't tell if they are in the metal or the surfacer. In any event (you only use these on the sheet metal), don't get to rough with your paint stripping procedures, and try to get the surface as smooth as possible before use.

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CNKS

05-14-2006 11:12:30




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 Re: tackling a paint job on massey 65 in reply to John Bick, 05-14-2006 10:24:38  
You have two choices. For bare metal you can use a phosphoric acid product such as Picklex 20, which is fairly expensive, or a product I bought at Home Depot called Must For Rust, much cheaper. Although they claim to be products you can paint over, I remove as much as I can before I paint because I don't want to paint over the residue they leave. The parts must be kept dry while in storage. That procedure is what I usually do if I think I have a rust problem. I live in a dry climate, and really do not have a problem. The other way, preferred by many people, is to prepare the surface for painting, that is use wax and grease remover to remove all oily substances from the bare metal and paint with epoxy primer, used out of a spray gun, not a rattle can. This is a 2 part product that usually does not contain isocyanates, check the MSDS first. An example is PPG MP 170, there are other brands. You do not have to waste it if you do as follows --- Epoxy primers have a window, perhaps 1 day to a week depending on the product during which they should be topcoated or be covered by another primer. If you cannot do that, you can scuff the epoxy with a scotchbrite pad, and give it another coat before you begin to paint, no big deal. I would still keep the parts inside, but epoxy, unlike Picklex is essentially water proof, so you don't need to worry about humidity, etc. As for myself, I have left bare metal for months without rust (I always sand it again though). Not everyone should try that.

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CNKS

05-14-2006 11:18:19




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 Re: tackling a paint job on massey 65 in reply to CNKS, 05-14-2006 11:12:30  
If you want to save product, get a touch-up gun, get several parts ready and spray. You can get by with 50 cc or so depending on the area covered versus a couple of hundred in a full size gun.



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rustyj14

05-14-2006 10:56:33




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 Re: tackling a paint job on massey 65 in reply to John Bick, 05-14-2006 10:24:38  
Any small parts can be stored in plastic bags. When the parts are ready for primer, you can use a pre-priming solution on them, then immediately pack them into the bags. In my day in auto body work, Metal-Prep, a phosphate solution, would keep small parts ready if kept in a closed container. Spray can primer might not be compatible with the primer you intend to use, and may lift underneath it! I've been out of the trade for 11 years, so i don't have enough knowlege of the newer paints, and how they react with that primer, but i'd say forget that idea. mix up the small amount of primer, enough to do what needs to be done, and do a bunch of parts at one time. but, don't get a lot of bare metal showing at one time, because thats how minor rust forms, and can/will ruin yer final refinish job! But, before any priming work, you must have all metal repairs, and sanding done! so, you have a choice: Do all the small parts at one time. Then do as many big pieces as you can handle in the time you have! Better to have some wasted materials, than to have to do some parts over because you tried to save a buck on paint! there is a lot to learn before you tackle a tractor refinish job, and if you don't have any spare time, its better not to start a big, whole tractor teardown, because you will soon lose interest in the job, because, for many weeks, months, years, you won't see much progress, and that has stopped lots of amateur's restorations, and even some experienced folk, too! After restoring my Model T Ford twice, i finally gave it up and sold it, long after i had started the 3rd. restoration! (Owned it for 50 years or so--hated to see it go, but no time any more for it!

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