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Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy stu

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mace56

05-23-2006 18:40:11




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OK I have a Allis B tractor stripped except for the basic powertrain castings. I need to paint around some pretty crazy corners back by the final drives. Should I try to 'jamb in' the underside of the final drives and other less conspicuous areas first and just allow overspray to sort of mess up these areas? Or is there a trick to handle a pretty abrupt corner when spraying.
Maybe I am worrying too much but I have heard that topcoat is sensitive to overpsray that somehow ruins any gloss. Not that I really need a show car gloss, just a consistent finish. Probably will use a arcylic with hardener in case I screw it up. Seems like that is only way to allow a quick recoat.
Any good books cover this stuff?
Thanks, as always. Stripping is progressing fast. Autobody paint stripper softens it and wire brushes in grinders do rest. Now that weather is warmer the castings do not seem to rust but I wonder if traces of paint remover remain?

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CNKS

05-23-2006 19:55:16




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to mace56, 05-23-2006 18:40:11  
I'll try to answer the last part first. you must get all that stripper off, out of every nook and crannie or it will lift the paint. By the time I get to that stage the wheels are off the tractor, thus it is immobile. Also I can't use a pressure washer or even a hose (can use hose with care) inside my building because I did not put a drain or have the floor sloped when I had my building put up. So I use soap and water, 409, etc with a lot of rags and rinsing, followed by liberal repeated applications of wax and grease remover. Have not had a problem, yet.
As to painting, I assume you are going to use epoxy first. That will give you some practice. You will get some overspray unless you mask things off. I don't. I do get some fading in some areas that I assume is dieback, but I don't believe it is from the overspray, I think it is from "double" spraying, that is accidentally or on purpose overlapping on a previously sprayed area that has not flashed. You will see the overspray immediately, the dieback may not show for weeks or months. You can spray the underside first if you want to. Unless you lay on your back under the tractor the overspray will not be noticable. The underside of my tractors look pretty good condsidering I have to spray at an angle. A pressure pot would be better though. I really don't have a solution for the rest of the tractor, except to avoid double coating as much as possible. Start at the front or back and work around the whole tractor. I use 3 coats. Be particularly careful with the last coat, as that one will cover some of the mistakes you make, and if you don't mess it up you will have a decent gloss. However, although cast is rough and reflects light differently, it will not show overspray as much as the sheet metal will, but it is still there and it will affect your gloss. In my opinion, the dieback caused by overlap on the irregular surface is the biggest problem.

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B-maniac

05-23-2006 19:31:04




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to mace56, 05-23-2006 18:40:11  
We deal with this problem on a larger scale every day. We paint 3to 4 large brush chippers and 1, 40 to 50 foot long industrial chippers and grinders every day,5 days a week,using from 200-250 gallons a week at our company,Morbark Inc.(see our website and virtual tour at www.morbark.com . The way we do it is to hit all the hard to get areas the first 2 coats and 1 good coat on the open areas. Then after that has set up we go in and put on what we refer to as the shine coat.In other words,spray what you see from straight away,and put the shine you want on and dont worry about the angles.You may not want to wait at all to put on the shine coat if your paint is drying quickly. It needs to melt in. You will have to experiment with this. Our water based alkyd is formulated to stay "open" a long time because the larger machines take an hour with 2 guys spraying with pressure pumpers just for 1 coat. You shouldn't have overspray problems if you use the correct reducers and/or catylist for your temp. and situation. Good luck with your project.

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CNKS

05-23-2006 20:05:26




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to B-maniac, 05-23-2006 19:31:04  
B, you posted as I was doing my slow typing. I don't disagree. As I said, I don't believe I have a major overspray problem, I think I am getting a accidental second coat on it before it flashes, as opposed to the correct 50% overlap. I think the more I paint the better I avoid that problem. It occurred the worst on the first tractor I did because I didn't know any better. I didn't notice it for a long time, eventually someone told me what it was. Just takes practice.

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mace56

05-24-2006 17:40:44




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to CNKS, 05-23-2006 20:05:26  
I probably confused overspray with second coat effect. I guess overspray refers to a rough look due to dried paint sticking on finish. A second coat just affects the gloss for some reason but is otherwise a normal looking surface.

I think I understand about not worrying about stuff you can't see so much. B Maniac has good explanation. The engines we sell take that to the extreme, if you can't see it, it don't have paint. My B was that way underneath, Allis had similar philosophy.

Also good to know about the paint remover residue. I guess there may be nasty stuff left behind even after it dries up. I normally wash with TSP or such stuff. I quit washing right after paint stripper worked since it seemed to cause serious rusting.

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Rod (NH)

05-24-2006 19:39:51




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to mace56, 05-24-2006 17:40:44  
Mace,

I'm not sure what you mean by "second coat effect". It sounds like you are talking about what happens when fine paint droplets (overspray)from the current coat application land on a surface where the paint is either already dry or so far beyond the flash point that the fine droplets of fresh paint in the overspray do not melt in well, if at all. I don't think you'd have a problem if you paid close attention to flash times between coats and start the next coat shortly after the previous coat has flashed. I'd do the hard to get at areas first and then proceed to complete that coat. After the flash time has passed, repeat that same method in the same sequence on the second coat. Then do the same for a third. You want the paint at the point where you end up on any coat to melt in nicely with the paint where you started on that same coat. You also need to allow a certain amount of time between coats to permit refilling your gun cup or mixing up more paint, if needed. Hopefully you can estimate the quantity to mix such that no mixing will be required between coats. I'll give you a for instance: If the flash time is 5-10 minutes (for OMNI MTK at 70F), then you don't want to take 20 minutes to complete a coat. With that scenario, I'd plan on spending no more than 5 minutes in applying a coat. Between coats is generally not the time to go for a coffee break. You need to get on with the second coat as soon as possible after the flash time has passed for the paint where you started. As B--- indicated, you should choose the correct reducer (and hardener if used) for the temperature at the time. Air temperature and metal temperature should be the same. Using a fast reducer in warm temps is only going to make it more difficult for you, not only with poor flowout but also possibly with poor melt in of overspray at the end of each coat. The OMNI MTK topcoat that CNKS and I use has four different temp reducers and three different temp hardeners available. The correct one to use is selected based on the temperature at the time of spraying. Most automotive paints are similar. I don't know what paint you are using but you should get the appropriate tech sheet from the manufacturer that would provide this specific information. If you cannot complete the area you're painting without greatly exceeding flash times between coats, then you should mask off the area as needed to do it in smaller, separate pieces.

third party image Rod

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CNKS

05-24-2006 20:04:01




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to Rod (NH), 05-24-2006 19:39:51  
The second coat effect, what I call dieback, usually occurs when I spray an irregular surface and for whatever reason, respray an area that has not yet flashed. As an example, I might paint from the front of the tractor to the back, but not painting the square axle housings which are at a 90 degree angle to the transmission housing. I then paint the housings, but some of the paint gets on a portion of the transmission housing I have just painted, but it has not flashed yet -- not saying I have actually done that exact thing, just trying to think of an example. In that case, I should wait until the paint on the chassis has flashed before I paint the axle housings. I usually don't preferring to give everything one coat. Sometimes it gets me. I don't think I have had that problem to any great degree since my first tractor, though.

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Rod (NH)

05-24-2006 21:20:40




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to CNKS, 05-24-2006 20:04:01  
I know you've mentioned that problem before. I am still puzzled by it and don't have an answer. I guess mainly because I don't recall ever experiencing something like it myself. No matter what you paint, at some point you will return to the place where you started. At that point you will have the new paint, and the unavoidable overspray associated with it, meet up with the paint previously laid down when you started that coat, perhaps only one or two minutes before (well under the stated flash time). That overspray should melt in quite nicely with no loss of gloss. I don't think that just because you are not able to get a perfectly perpendicular application it would make much difference. The only time you are ever able to achieve that and maintain a constant distance to surface throughout the pattern is with a flat plate as a target. That's a nice goal but it's seldom achieved. In your example, I certainly wouldn't stop and wait for previous fresh paint at 90 deg to get past the stated flash time. Quite the opposite. I'd want to get that area sprayed just as soon as possible so whatever did get on the adjacent paint was able to melt in well with it before it reached the stated flash time. After all, as soon as you make a second pass anywhere, the 50% overlap is actually applying more paint to previous paint that hasn't flashed. Maybe I'm all wet here or just don't understand the problem. Perhaps B--- or Ex-pro or someone can add something better or different.

Rod

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B-maniac

05-25-2006 17:26:38




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to Rod (NH), 05-24-2006 21:20:40  
Sounds like overspray instead of die back. I agree with Rod,keep it all as wet as you can without inviting more dirt. Plan your job ahead so your "return to start point" will be underneath or in a nonconspicious area.Sounds like you have it figured out.



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CNKS

05-25-2006 07:31:55




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 Re: Spraying topcoat around corners and more dummy in reply to Rod (NH), 05-24-2006 21:20:40  
This is probably getting more involved than is justified -- I don't consider it a major problem, just one of the things I mention. One thing about cast iron is that it "hides" defects. In other words it is possible to spray an area that was missed and not worry about blending it in with the previous coat. The defect is indeed there but on sheet metal it would look terrible. That's what I meant about letting the chassis flash, then painting the 90 degree axles. The main part of the paint going on the flashed area will blend in with the previous coat and really won't be noticeable. The "overspray" at the edges will be noticeable as it will immediately dull the finish. It may be 6 of one with your suggestion, and a half dozen with mine, I don't know. Whereas with sheet metal, you would probably have to do the whole panel, regardless of which method is tried. In that case I would mask at a natural break or seam. There are many such areas on cast that if done that way would make it perfect, but would take a lot of time. After saying all of this, I really am not sure that the "dieback" is what actually happens, I just notice some occasional dulling on cast that I do not see on sheet metal, and it shows up some time after painting, it looks ok at first -- so at this point in time my comments are just a big guess. I now have to go fix some screwups on my fenders -- I ordered that small buffer you told me about, gets here in about an hour. I should be able to control it better and get out some of my small scratches that were caused by my large buffer.

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