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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Too much paint

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Tom Lawless

06-07-2006 16:19:47




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Hello. I hope someone can help this ignorant old man. I bought an old MF65 and decided to paint it. I have numerous old age and health problems, so it took me a long time to sand it and get a quality level of smooth primer on it. Then I used a spray gun for my very first time to put the paint on. That paint came out like a cow going on a flat rock. I quickly brushed it around, but it looks terrible. Can I just dry sand it with a jitterbug now and paint over it, or do I have to go back down to bare metal? I did this Three Stooges thing yesterday. I did put hardener in the the paint. Also, could I wet sand it now with a course paper?
Any help will be appreciated.
Tom

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Turbos10

06-11-2006 06:17:22




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 16:19:47  
I read through most of your delima and suggestions. I remember my first painting experience with a car and some acrylic enamel. I will just say, be glad it is a tractor cause cars are much more work to fix.

Anyhow, I think you are on the right track to get a decent finish. Testing is key on something like this. If you had another junk hood or something to test on I would. You might even consider going to your local auto salvage and getting a hood off of a wreck. If it is not useable, they will sell it to you cheap or might just give it to you.

After you get it, just practice on small parts at a time untill you get the feel for the gun and the paint reduction right. If you run out of room, flip it over.

As a tip, I always test my gun on a piece of masking paper before painting. I hang up a couple strips on the shop wall and use it to set paint volume and fan(those are the two knobs on the back of your gun).

Another thing is that if you start painting and it is not working out for you, stop. It is easier to strip a small section than a whole tractor. Believe me, if it starts out bad it will not get better without some help.

Good Luck!

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B-maniac

06-07-2006 19:03:56




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 16:19:47  
I assume the sheet metal is the area you are unhappy with since the rest isn't that fussy anyway.Are we talking about the red or the grey? I will assume the red. Here's what I would do. Let it cure for a month.Take a spray bomb of white and just dust a "tracer coat" over the red.Let dry 15 min. Now take a 4" rubber sanding block with 320 wet/dry paper(black) and a water hose as you sand and sand it smooth (when all the white is gone it will be smooth.Might have to use paper without the block in some places.The tracer coat will make it a lot quicker and you won't have to keep drying it off to see your progress. Just sand til the white is all gone. Then repaint,BUT,take the advise SounDguy gave about a test panel.

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Tom Lawless

06-07-2006 19:39:44




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to B-maniac, 06-07-2006 19:03:56  
Thank you very much. I will give it a try. I don't need the tractor for use, so time is not a problem. Is there a certain pressure to use a spray gun at? I got a cheap one without a guage, but I can set the pressure on the compressor like I always have for work tools.
Thanks again,

Tom



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souNdguy

06-08-2006 05:42:11




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 19:39:44  
My gun is a 9$ unit from harbor freight.. Syphon gun.. aluminum cup..Similar to the 10-14$ units you see at walmart o and other cheap tool stores. Close one eye, and stand 20' back and it almost looks like a binks..

In any case.. -MY- gun said to set are between 25 and 45 psi I generall pain around 38 psi to 40 psi.

I mix my paint up per the can, and then go to test painting.. once the paint starts syphoning. I check my pressure gaugge to see that I am in my range while holding a steady spray, and then I adjust my nozzle pattern, and then lastly, air.. Once you adjust air.. you can probably 'leave' it, as long as you are using the same paint you normally use.. and reduce tot he same viscosity.. otherwise you may have to tweak the air a bit each time.

Once you have the spray coming out good.. do some practice if this is your first time. Learn how to go from spray to air for vertain thing.. Make a few mistakes intentionally on your test spray.. see exactly what it takes to get a run on a vertical surface.. or a slump.. etc. Practice with painting a slight run out.. or blowing a slight run out. Find out what overspray does to a previously sprayed surface...

Learn the environment... 0 wind is best.. or if there is some wing.. try to not paint into the wind.. humidity is an issue.. the paint you use and the temp and humidity will all be a factor. Same with your reducer.. etc. Buy compatible materials.. whether the cheap stuff.. or the spendy stuff... And remember.. surface prep is 85% or more of what the eventual outlook will look like.. not the paint.. or the gun.. technique , materials, environment are the rest of the equation..

I'm just a hobby 'hack' painter.. but if you practice.. a 10$ paint gun and small compressor and lots patience and more sanding that you ever wanted to do...will turn out a few parade ready tractors.. and deffinately plenty of workers..

Soundguy

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Rod (NH)

06-07-2006 20:26:16




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 19:39:44  
Hi Tom,

That may be a big contributor to your problem. The correct air pressure at the gun is very important for proper atomization of the paint. Take a look at my way of setting that pressure to see if it helps you out. As others have said, make sure you do some practice painting on something to get things squared away with your gun before spraying your tractor. An old car hood or door works good but even a large piece of cardboard can be beneficial just to check things out.

third party image Rod

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Tom Lawless

06-07-2006 20:50:46




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Rod (NH), 06-07-2006 20:26:16  
Boy, I just read your "my way of setting pressure". I reckon I am not just too old, but too stupid also. I have a lot of unused paint brushes. I know how to use those. He he
Thank you all again, and goodnight,

Tom
"It ain't broke! It just needs duct tape".



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Rod (NH)

06-09-2006 16:21:29




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 20:50:46  
Tom,

You are never too old and you sure aren't stupid. There is a dizzying array of painting products and methods to use them. For anyone to step beyond a brush and hardware store paint, the confusion can be overwhelming. You'll find all kinds of recommendations from the very simple to the very complex, even some seemingly contradicting advice, depending on what the poster is used to and has had good luck with. For the most part there is no right and wrong way - just different means to a similar end for varying levels of quality and durability - and of course, cost. Start out small, take things a little at a time, follow the manufacturer's written instructions and practice, practice, practice. Sometimes just getting a spray gun to work properly can be a frustrating experience. For those paints that require thinning (reduction) but where no specific ratio is given by the manufacturer, it may be necessary to find out what works by trial and error. Don't be discouraged and don't expect a Mercedes quality level your first time out.

Rod

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Tom Lawless

06-09-2006 19:31:02




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Rod (NH), 06-09-2006 16:21:29  
Hi Rod,

Well, I got it back to bare metal, oven cleaner spray saved me again for being the best paint remover, and I have the primer on. I am going to do a LOT of testing as you said, and then go at it again. One stubborn old cootI reckon. I will get it right before I croak. LOL

Tom



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B-maniac

06-07-2006 20:25:36




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 19:39:44  
Tom, my heart really goes out to you.I know how much you want to do this project yourself and because of that and the inherent idiosyncrisies of paint,I and probably a few others on here will attempt to walk you through to an acceptable job. What you need to do is provide us with a lot more information such as,conditions you're painting in,Type and brand of paint and hardner.Also temp. range of hardner if applicable.Type of gun (syphon feed,gravity feed etc. Some of the cheapo guns have a knob to change from syphon to pressure pot.For a novice,syphon is the most forgiving.Also be more specific about the actual problem or flaws you had the first time.(runs,dirt orange peel,dry spray,fisheyes etc.)For detailed answers you need to ask detailed questions. We will help you.

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CNKS

06-07-2006 17:18:15




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 16:19:47  
Wet sand with 400. You "may" be able to dry sand if you have a GOOD orbital sander, and good paper such as that made by 3M, I have not tried that. I have however, color sanded dry with 1500 (to buff, you need 400 if you are going to repaint). You need to find out what is wrong with your spray gun, or it will happen again. Your topcoat will likely not cover any coarser than 400 grit scratches. If you cannot flatten it with 400, I would strip it with chemical stripper and start over. Hard for me to say without seeing the tractor.

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Tom Lawless

06-07-2006 18:02:17




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to CNKS, 06-07-2006 17:18:15  
Thank you for the reply. What is color sanding? I used 3M 1000 with an electric vibrator sander on the last coat of primer. The package contains 100 through 1000, and I purchased a bunch. Do you think I have to wait for the paint to cure before I sand?

Tom



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CNKS

06-07-2006 20:03:36




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 18:02:17  
Color sanding is sanding the color coat with the intention of buffing it out with compound then polish. You can do what b-maniac says, I prefer to wipe the water off and dry with a blow dryer, it doesn't take long before you can see what you missed. You should not go finer than 4-600 grit on either primer or topcoat if you are repainting, finish with 2000 if buffing. The paint may not adhere properly following the higher grits. The max pressure should be marked on your gun. If HVLP probably 30-50 psi at the gun, that depends on what the manufacturer says. Conventional guns 40-50 psi. You need a gauge on the gun, you set the pressure on the gun with the regulator on the wall or wherever your outlet is. Ignore the gauge on the outlet. You need a good water trap, also, as far away from the compressor as you can get it. Don't try to paint without one. If you are using the typical air tool pressure of 90 psi, that is at least part of your problem.

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Tom Lawless

06-07-2006 20:20:13




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to CNKS, 06-07-2006 20:03:36  
Thank you again. I will close this with your and the other fellows advice. I really appreciate all the help. I bought a cheap sprayer and as you said that may have been the problem. I think you all told me the biggest problem. I am too dang old to be messing with things that I don't know squat about. I'll do my best to fix it though.

You all take care, and thank you again,

Tom
Quitman, TX

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souNdguy

06-07-2006 18:07:14




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-07-2006 18:02:17  
Well you can't sand it tacky...

On your gun.. Keep a piece of test metal around, and set it out when you paint. Every time I paint i set out a piece od sheet metal and use it to get my air setting on my gun correct, and ballance my reducer to a paint viscosity that will work for my project. Might waste an ounce of paint or two.. but it sure beats sanding down a project and doing it over again..

I paint with a cheapy gun too.. you can get decent results.. most of it depends on your surface prep...

Soundguy

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Tom Lawless

06-14-2006 18:07:43




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to souNdguy, 06-07-2006 18:07:14  
Well, I bit the bullet again and using all suggestions, it worked. I was as happy as a pig in mud until I came here to tell you guys. First thing I saw was an old forum about how lousy the paint I used named BPS from Tractor Supply was. I just got off the phone with TSC and they don't sell any clear protective paint. Can that clear enamel from Rustoleum or any other company be put on enamel that has been mixed with hardener? You guys got me through the tough part, I hope you can help me end this job on the happy note I was in a bit ago. Once again, thanks for all the previous help. I did find that oven cleaner takes paint down to bare metal, and gets grease and old gaskets off.

Tom

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CNKS

06-14-2006 18:38:02




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-14-2006 18:07:43  
That type paint (alkyd enamel) used to be factory paint, used on cars and trucks from the 30's into the 70's? If you keep your tractor inside, and keep it waxed as souNdguy suggests, it will last a long time. It's main problem is it has no UV (sunlight) inhibitors thus it will fade if not protected. The "newer" paints, such as acrylic urethane have UV inhibitors, better flowout and the resulting higher gloss. The economy lines cost 3 or 4 times what you paid, but are worth the money. The expensive versions are $250-$300 a gallon.

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CNKS

06-14-2006 18:47:55




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to CNKS, 06-14-2006 18:38:02  
I didn't answer your question. Read the clear coat question by MDM, 2 threads above this one. As to the Rustoleum, I don't know if it has UV inhibitors in it. The more expensive ones do, but pay attention to what B-maniac said. If I were you I would quit while I'm ahead, and wax it in 6 months or so.



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souNdguy

06-14-2006 18:17:03




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-14-2006 18:07:43  
Don't feel too bad about that BPS paint. All my tractors are wearing it. it makes decent cheap work clothes.. and with a little wax and parking it under a shed.. it will even dress up and do parade duty.

If you used hardner with your bps paint, it should have a fairly decent luster and gloss to it. Once it is fully cured.. deffinately fully cured.. ..fully fully cured... wax and buff it.. should look good.

I've had quite a few of my tractors at shows... while my 300-400$ paint job doesn't compair with the 800+$ paint jobs some o fthe pro's have.. it sets pretty nicely with the 'bulk' of the rest..

Soundguy

Soundguy

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Tom Lawless

06-14-2006 18:57:30




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to souNdguy, 06-14-2006 18:17:03  
Another thought. Could I rough it up with 3m 400 grit sandpaper and go over the current paint with good paint?

Tom



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CNKS

06-14-2006 19:31:33




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-14-2006 18:57:30  
Don't do that, the new paint may not be compatible with the old, then you will have a real mess. Sometimes there are problems even using the same paint, depending on the recoat interval -- again, quit while you are ahead, if you do another tractor, you can use better paint.



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souNdguy

06-14-2006 19:07:55




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-14-2006 18:57:30  
If ya just painted it.. why not just wear that out.if you are gonna pay the money to repaint.. at least get the years out of this paint first.. the cost in the end will be the same.. only difference is that one scenereo will be years down the road..

I don't see why intact paint can't be used as primer. I've painted over intact paint before...

Soundguy



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Tom Lawless

06-14-2006 19:18:35




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to souNdguy, 06-14-2006 19:07:55  
I said I was stupid! He he You are 100% correct. I will keep it clean and dry. I guess we OLD farmers just want to show off how much we can do in our old age.

Thanks and take care,

Bald headed idiot
Quitman, TX



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CNKS

06-14-2006 19:39:34




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-14-2006 19:18:35  
You are not stupid, bald headed maybe, idiot no. I went through this whole thing 5 years ago, many of the same questions. Only difference was I asked the questions before I painted. My previous painting experience was a 76 Chevy pickup that I "painted" nearly 20 years before that scared me away from painting for the 20 years -- then I WAS stupid.



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souNdguy

06-14-2006 19:32:29




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-14-2006 19:18:35  
Stupid? NAaaaa.. just got too much energy!!

That cheapey paint should get you at -least- a few years down the road in the elements.. and if you wax it and keep it under a pole barn.. or lean-too.. or even a tarp shade structure.. Ya might be surprised at how many years you get.

By the way... don't feel too bad about that BPS paint. I've got a NH 7610s built in 2002. It is under cover, and the factory CNH paint on it is faded dull, and worn thru to the primer in areas where my arms contact the fenders.. etc... That's only 4 years and the OEM paint looks worse than my cheap BPS painted tractors.. that have gone for a few more years so far.. and still havn't faded..

Soundguy

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Tom Lawless

06-14-2006 19:50:37




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to souNdguy, 06-14-2006 19:32:29  
Thank you to you two fellows AGAIN. If you were here I'd give you all the beer, soda, and BBQ you could consume. I REALLY appreciate the help.

Tom



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Tom Lawless

06-14-2006 18:54:45




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to souNdguy, 06-14-2006 18:17:03  
Thanks. Is there a Clear Coat made that will adhere to it and not flake off. I have worked this old butt off for over a month doing this stupid brainstorm I got, so I hate the thought of it fading away. I cannot believe it is the same paint as I used in the 40's and 50's. They should not be allowed to sell it. My cars back then used to rust if it smelled wet outside.

Tom



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souNdguy

06-14-2006 19:05:11




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 Re: Too much paint in reply to Tom Lawless, 06-14-2006 18:54:45  
It's older tech alkyd paint.. but you know what.. it fills a niche.. People need a cheaper paint source for some things. The average workin' tractor doesn't need an 800-1000$ apint job to drive thru the weeds... 100-200$ is fine.

Keep your paint waxed... it will last many years.

My 8n, the first one I painted is going on 6 years now.. paint hasn't degraded except where it has been gouged .. etc.... just keep waxing and buffing.

I've had no rust thru problems on metal I properly treated. metal that is not prepped good will rust no matter what price you pay for your paint.

I'm not familiar with clear coats.. but keep in mind.. your hardner was a gloss and luster addative..

( The local paint guru will probably know.. but I'm guessing your catylized and cured paint will be a decent base for another paint product... etc.. )

Soundguy

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