Paint types

Just a friendly minor correction. Red Oxide doesn't necessarily indicate a lacquer-type primer. That term indicates the color more than anything else. There used to be a "red oxide" enamel primer from DuPont as I recall, I think Rustoleum's rusty metal is also red in color and PPG's DPLF epoxy primer has a red oxide version (DP74LF). In short, just calling it "red oxide" doesn't tell you anything about what it really is other than the color of it. He may be fine as you say but he should perform a test with it to be sure.

Rod

The use of the short hand term 2K is confusing. I haven't seen any formal definition of it. I've always taken it to mean a "two component" product, not including any reducer or thinner. Technically that makes epoxy a 2K product by virtue of the required catalyst. However, even though PPG OMNI refers to both MP170 epoxy and MP182 surfacer as "two component" products, they use the 2K short hand designation only for the 182 - not the 170. I don't know what the significance of that is, if anything. I may have misused the 2K term in my post under Jason in this thread when referring to the non-iso NCP250. I'm not sure.

I have mixed feelings about that "new format". I actually prefer this one but I can use either. I just hope she keeps the ability to use html coding, since I make significant use of it in links.

Rod

Your paint job needs to be viewed in the frame of reference as the item you are painting, and the purpose you are painting it for, as well as value.

I will paint a 50,000$ sportscare completely differently and with different materials, that you will a 'plow' that needs paint on it to prevent rust.. but doesn't have to look good.. besides.. any ground engaging implement you paint.. eventually will have no paint on it.. whether the paint job was a 20$ rattle can deal.. 50$ alkyd cheapy paint.. or a 300$ 'car' paint job.

Same applies to tractors.... You want a parade paint job... pay for it... You want some paint on your work tractor? Maybee save some money. Big money in paint. I can buy all the materials including surface prep stuff for an average tractor, and use a store brand alkyd paint for the same cost of a single gallon of 'the good stuff'.. not counting all the incedentals the 'good stuff' will need.. and all of it's surface prep , materials.

As for keeping an item covered... Heck.. that seems like common sense. I wouldn't put a stack of hundred dollar bills out in the open to get rained on and have the sun shine on it all day... I'd put it under a roof.. same with a tractor..

With some basic care.. cheap paint can get you down the road. I have some 6+ year paint on an 8n.. it has been washed 2 times since beaing painted.. and waxed once... Paint looks new... It stays under a leantoo, out of the sun and rain...

Contrast that with the 'bad' paint on my 4 year old NH tractor.. of which the last 2 years it has been under cover.. can't speak for the 1st 2 years... It's paint is faded and super thin...

I think I could buff 80% of it out.. except where the paint is gone. Not sure what NH used.. but it isn't holding up as good as BPS paint from TSC..

Soundguy

Ditto what the others said and I'll add my own expanded opinions. I am not a brand pusher. Paint "quality" is determined far more by chemistry than brand label. Each of the major automotive paint manufacturers have two or more "lines" of paints with different chemistries in each of them. The basic chemistries are alkyd enamels, acrylic enamels, acrylic urethanes and polyurethanes. There are also some hybrid chemistries available in some lines. The alkyd enamels are pretty much out of the picture in current automotive lines. I don't mention lacquer at all because that has basically been relegated to the ash bin of history except for some purist auto restorers. DuPont has a brief summary of the history of paint chemistry here. The paints that you will find in tractor supply stores and most tractor dealerships are not automotive paints. They are generally old technology alkyd enamels that were "the thing" in the '40s and 50's. They have a deserved reputation for early fading of color. Their only advantage is that they are inexpensive, say less than $50 per gallon. In my opinion an alkyd enamel from any single manufacturer is no better or worse than an alkyd enamel from any other manufacturer. Most of the tractor store paints and even dealer paints are rebranded labels from some major paint manufacturer. Valspar seems to be a big player in the low end agricultural market as far as an actual paint manufacturer goes. You need to look carefully at the label to find out who really makes the paint. For example, Allis Chalmers doesn't make paint and neither does TSC, even though their branding may be prominent on the label of paints you get from them.

There are two basic considerations; what kind of performance do you want and how much are you willing to pay to achieve it. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Higher performance means higher cost. I am of the opinion that the low-end "economy" lines of automotive paint from any of the major manufacturers represent a good compromise and provide good value for the money spent. Others will tend to go lower in price/performance while others will tend to go higher. For economy line automotive paint, $100/gal is probably typical. Premium line paints will go much more than that. A single stage paint system where both the color and the gloss are obtained at the same time is the most common in the tractor world but two stage basecoat/clearcoat (BC/CC) systems now completely dominate the automotive refinish market. I can see no compelling reason for BC/CC systems for the majority of tractor or agricultural painting. Others will disagree, depending on preference. There are certainly exceptions but I think a general rule of thumb would be that "economy" automotive paints will be between two and three times the cost of tractor store paints, premium automotive paints will be between two and three times the cost of the "economy" automotive paints and that a BC/CC system can about double the cost of a single stage system in either an "economy" or premium line of automotive paint. The costs between manufacturers should be competitive between similar lines and chemistries so I doubt you'll find any significant difference between manufacturers for equivalent products. You don't want to select a manufacturer based on a cost comparison between an economy line paint of one manufacturer and a premium line paint from another. That would be an apples and oranges comparison.

One of the less mentioned (but very important) aspects of tractor painting is personal safety. Modern paints that require hardeners, including the urethanes and most clear coats, contain isocyanates that represent a special breathing hazard. They should only be used when a fresh air breathing system is available. The cost for such a system is $300 - $400 as a minimum. I am also of the opinion that the "economy" urethanes and hardened enamels provide sufficiently better chemical resistance (read gasoline spills) and repair ease that the extra cost of a fresh air breathing system is fully justified in order to safely use them. That cost should be figured into the equation before any final decision is made regarding paint selection. Others disagree here also. Individuals will have to evaluate the hazard severity and decide on acceptable risks for themselves. If you wish to find out more about this specific safety aspect of using modern paints and their additives, do a search in this forum on the words "isocyanates" or "isos" and you will find plenty of links to recognized authorities on the matter. Also be sure to read the fine print on the label of any can of hardener additive from any manufacturer.

Rod

first off when considering what paint system does the person have/willing to buy a fresh air supply/self contained breathing aparatus, i.e. full presurized mask? New cartages in a filter mask don't cut it with out the full blown spray booth. If so, I like single stage urethans such as Duponts Imron + Nason lines, ppg's concept + omni. Napa/sherman williams are great to I just don't know them. If they don't have the fresh air, then it's nothings that uses a harder with isocynates. Products in the Arcylic enamels like duponts centrai line, ppg's omni line can be had in AE's. I know some people like to add a synthetic hardner to John Deere paint, by doing that they need the fresh air supply.

I have standardized on PPG's DPLF epoxy primer, 250 surfacer (on tin) and concept for the color coat. On the tin's I color sand and buff to take out any little pieces of junk that got in the paint. I don't have a booth. I use surplus firefighter SCBA tanks, I hook four of them together. My local dive shop fills them for me. Next time I would just by the hobbie air system.

I have found in the PAST that the cheap paints are the wrong shade of color, ruined by gasoline, fade really fast. I DON'T LIKE TO PAINT. To me the paint is the cheap part of a paint job, its the time in prepwork that costs. My guess in paint costs (I'll be posting the real numbers in a few weeks when the job is done) for painting my Allis G is about $400. I had to spend $125/side for brake shoes, that was a LOT in my mind.

I will say however that IH primer is a pain. I am currently painting my mother"s IH 350 utility and the "red oxide" primer is giving me real problems. I may break the cardinal rule on my next painting project and mix and match paint systems and use a better primer/surfacer with IH 2150. Any sugestions?

On a third subject I wisely took advise from some here on this forum and have never painted with hardner, since I have no intention of buying a suplied air system. I recently figured out how wise this advice was when I walked in on a friend spraying paint containing hardener. While this first exposer did not bother my breathing, I have never had my eyes burn from overspray before like they did that night. He was just sparying JD paint which has never bothered me before, but just the overspray w/ harnener sure made my eyes burn. I can"t imagine spraying a whole tractor like that!!

I'll only add a little. I wouldn't apply the MP181 directly to bare metal. It really should have a good bare metal primer under it, like the 170 epoxy. Besides, you'll need a good bare metal primer anyway for the cast. You don't want or need a surfacer like either the 181 or the 131S there. I have never applied the IH topcoat over either the PPG MP181, the PPG MP170 or the DuPont 131S. However, I am quite confident that you would have no compatibility problems in doing so with any of the three. I suspect that once you use the 170 for a bare metal primer, you'll be hooked on it. Plus, if you sandblast any sheet steel and have only the blast profile to fill, you will not need a surfacer at all. Two coats of 170 and go directly to topcoat.

Rod

Perhaps I misunderstood your problem. I thought you were talking about "future" projects. I would not apply any 181 over any existing IH primer that you are having trouble with. If that lifts with the IH topcoat over it, I expect it will lift like crazy with the 181. The 181 is reduced with a fairly agressive solvent - the MR reducer, acetone, lacquer thinner or some combination of those. Applying that over any type of fresh enamel, primer or not, can be a disaster. You can try it, but I'd try it on a separate part that is easily stripped and redone to be sure.

Rod

• MP 181

• Scratches

I assume the 250 you mention is PPG's NCP-250, a non-iso 2K surfacer, and one of the very few available. I am curious what price you found it to be, including activator. If it is "reasonable", it would be a preferred alternative to the lacquer-based surfacers I wind up recommending to those who don't have and don't wish to buy fresh air breathing eaquipment. The DPLF epoxy primer is now well over my personal cost limits and I've moved to OMNI MP-170, which I consider to be an acceptable substitute at a significantly lower price.

Rod

1) Alkyd enamel -- sold by tractor dealers and tractor stores such as TSC. A high maintenance paint, needs to be kept inside to prevent fading and chalking.

2) Acrylic modified alkyd enamel -- same as 1, except it will last longer due to acrylic properties such as UV inhibitors.

3) Acrylic enamel--cheaper lines may be similar to 2) in terms of durability, better lines are far superior.

4. Single stage urethanes -- premium acrylic enamels are likely better than economy acrylic urethanes. Premium urethanes are "better" than premium acrylic enamels.

5. Base coat/clear coat -- these are also urethanes -- the current automotive standard.