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Do I really want to do this?

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CNKS

07-02-2006 11:36:53

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I still have a contamination or some other problem in my paint. It isn't really bad, but it bugs me. My setup is about 120+ feet of black pipe running thru 2 water traps, plus a throwaway filter on the gun. The two traps are at the end of the line (the second is actually an extension of the original line, and is about 100 line feet from the compressor. I have never had visible or "feelable" water in that trap. Installed 4 years ago. My intentions were to use galvanized, but the salesman said it could flake off. Besides both black and galvanized get dirty, due to rust, etc, some people say black is much worse than galvanized, I don't know. SO --- with absolutely no guarantee that it will solve the problem, I am considering replacing my black pipe with 120+ feet of 3/4 copper with 1/2 drops, estimated cost pushes $450 plus all the miscellaneous that inevitably will show up. Also a $250 or so 3 stage coalescing filter. I wonder if the filter alone will screen out the crud without the new line? With the line I will have a rust-free, clean system that will last virtually forever, except for the rust in my air compressor tank, which is impossible to avoid. It gets drained every day. If I do put in the line, I know absolutely nothing about soldering. I think I can get most of the connectors, tees, elbows, etc with the solder in the ring that they have -- these are simply heated with a propane torch? For how long, and how satisfactory are they? 120 feet is 12-10 foot sections, plus all the elbows, tees etc, so those are numerous and I don't want any leaks. Anyone is free to tell me I'm nuts, nothing new, since I already know that. Except this is my only hobby, I intend to do it until I become too old and crippled to care anymore. And, I am tired of sanding and buffing out every piece that has cooties on it. Buffing small parts is an escape technique that is much less satisfactory than eliminating the problem, whatever it is. Much more difficult than buffing a car hood. I have also decided that single stage AU does not buff very well, even with the "proper" technique, using 4 inch pads, etc. Any and all comments welcome. And yes my problem could be solvent pop, but with all the various combinations of things I have done, I know nothing further to do. So it's very possible that I will spend $700 and still have the problem. That might pay for seven days in a care home, but I'm not THAT old yet.

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RobertTX

07-05-2006 09:06:35

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 11:36:53

I recently had a phantom contamination problem. I traced it down to a dirty gun. I had used my HVLP gun to shoot some primer surfacer (which I normally shoot in the old gun) and it had left a crusty residue where the cup threads into the gun body. I had run solvent through it and had done everything I normally do, but the crap came out in small intermittent bursts when I painted color. You probably clean your guns better than I do, just a thought before you replace your lines.

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CNKS

07-05-2006 11:05:16

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to RobertTX, 07-05-2006 09:06:35

Thanks,I buy gun cleaner in 5 gallon containers, I use more solvent to clean with than I do reducer in the paint -- I have eliminated the line thing -- it's in my painting area and booth, currently trying to correct that.

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jason(ma)

07-03-2006 03:48:46

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 11:36:53

here's another late comment - have you tried by-passing you pipe system with rubber air lines? Just temp to see if the problem changes?

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CNKS

07-03-2006 17:41:31

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to jason(ma), 07-03-2006 03:48:46

Hadn't thought of that, I would need a longer air hose. After Rod and B's answers, and after examining my filters, the only thing I am getting through those lines is microscopic.

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jason(ma)

07-03-2006 03:48:03

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 11:36:53

here's another late comment - have you tried by-passing you pipe system with rubber air lines? Just temp to see if the problem changes?

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Dave Fullmer(W.TN)

07-02-2006 18:04:14

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 11:36:53

I work in maintenance in a stamping plant and we NEVER use galvanized pipe in our air lines. Galvanize flakes off and becomes problems in air valves, etc. Always use black pipe for air lines unless you want to go to copper. I also agree that using PVC is asking for lots of troubles. I have seen too many times that 60 PSI water lines have pushed apart "good" glue joints.

I am coming into this discussion at a late stage but is what you describe "fish eyes"? Any silicone applications before sanding? Just a dumb feeler question.

Dave

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CNKS

07-02-2006 18:36:45

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to Dave Fullmer(W.TN), 07-02-2006 18:04:14

The galvanized flaking is the reason I did not use it. The black pipe was slightly cheaper, also. Far as I'm concerned my parts are very clean before I paint, I use wax and grease remover to clean with and always just before painting. As I said, I'm not sure I have seen fish eyes, they result from silicone, oil on your fingers, or so B says, oil or silicone in the painting enviornment -- I don't have that. To my knowledge I do not use any silicone containing products, anywhere near the time I paint, and whatever I do use is completely removed before I paint. I thought I had overkill on everything, but this is one problem I have been unable to solve. I cannot get my building squeaky clean, so I may have to live with it.

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Dave Fullmer(W.Tn)

07-03-2006 17:48:09

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 18:36:45

Well CNKS,
I went through some of the rest of the posts and I realized that I was the 5 year old trying to advise men with lots of experience. I don't have much experience painting and my comments (other than the air pipes) would have been best left unsaid. I should stick to areas that I know about like automation control circuitry. Hope you figure out what the problem is and then you will be able to tell the rest of us.

Dave

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CNKS

07-03-2006 19:27:36

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to Dave Fullmer(W.Tn), 07-03-2006 17:48:09

Your comments are welcome. I am more like the 5 year old, as I seem to have things with no easy solution, when it may be some silly mistake that I am missing.

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Rod (NH)

07-02-2006 16:09:40

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No! in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 11:36:53

CN,

L'll agree with B---. While my own first choice for air line is copper, steel (galv or not) should work fine with the proper filtration. It is, after all the mainstay choice for compressed air and has been for many, many years. I have no idea what the micron rating is for those little line filters that you put at the gun inlet - I don't use one at all. Also a water trap is not a filter. If your problem is particulate matter originating somewhere in your piping system, water traps are not the solution. A "standard" particulate filter for painting from DeVilbiss is 5 micron. A similar one from Sharp appears to be 10 micron. These are in combo filter/regulator units. I wouldn't expect them to be wire mesh but I have never peered inside of one. Usually that type of filter has replaceable elements and is not like the cleanable oil bath air cleaners that you see on engine intakes. I don't know if what you have is something similar. The triple filtration unit you mention will be about the best you can get, although I'm not sure it is necessary. I have something similar (40 micron/1 micron/0.01 micron) but I suspect it is overkill. Certainly if you go with a coalescing filter (typical 0.01 micron), you need at least one coarser filter (prefilter) upstream of it or the element could be clogging all the time. Fine filtration is almost always done in multiple stages, as a practical matter. Before you do anything however, try what B--- suggests regarding tearing into your filter at the gun for a visual inspection - just to check things. I suspect it's cheap enough to be considered a throw-away. Also try and find out what the micron rating of it is. If it's 20 or 40 micron, you may be getting finer stuff right through it anyway. If you are getting the finer stuff through, there probably are larger particles also that will be caught and will show up on a visual inspection - if the problem is originating somewhere in your plumbing system. I still think it is some kind of atmospheric contamination. If that's not a typo down below and you really do not use tack cloths just prior to paint, you should. That's pretty standard practice. I see recently somewhere (maybe DuPont) that sells tack cloths that are also treated with an anti-static material. They would seem to eliminate the extra steps of spraying an anti-static product. That may not be your problem but I just mention it in passing.

Rod

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CNKS

07-02-2006 18:28:06

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Re: No! in reply to Rod (NH), 07-02-2006 16:09:40

Rod and B -- Check the link -- In the diagram, the filter/whatever I am using is the 6950, click on the top right in the diagram. I had not seen this site before. I notice that it is for air tools, not for painting, but it has 1 micron filtering capacity. The ones for paint booths are two stage. Of course the diagram with all the filters/traps is for commercial people, not the one size fits all I am looking for. So, I don't know if the 6950 I have traps anything but water or not. I stripped the threads on my oldest filter, the one closest to the compressor, will have to replace the canister, so I took it apart. It consists of fabric webbing on one end and wire mesh webbing on the other. Slightly stained, not really dirty. I also tore apart the filter on the gun, just a stack of paper washers, absolutely clean and dry. I am leaning toward getting a Sharpe or other 2,3 stage, since RTI does not recommend the one I have for paint. However the owner of the business I bought it from sells a lot of them for painting, and is a painter himself -- so I do not know. With your and B's opposition to the line change (I liked your NO!), I am pretty much convinced that the lines are not the problem. I looked at a couple of parts I painted Friday, they aren't that bad, maybe I'm too picky. But, I would like to paint something and not get those bumps or needle points, or solvent pop, or whatever it is.

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Rod (NH)

07-02-2006 20:19:15

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Re: No! in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 18:28:06

The E4000 for the paint booth appears to be a 6950 with a dessicant drier module ahead of it, forming a combo. It's still a 1 micron final filter. I think your 6950 should be more than adequate for particulate removal for painting purposes. I don't see anything at that link that would indicate that it wasn't. I assume you also have a 6950 at your painting drop station, immediately upstream of your regulator. One micron is very fine for a single unit filter. I suspect that wire mesh webbing serves as a built-in prefilter to the main fabric webbing filter portion. It's also probably the first thing after the inlet. Since you found nothing visable in the gun inlet filter, I don't think you problem originates in your plumbing at all. I would say that going to the triple 0.01 micron combo unit was not justified economically. I really am stumped here. I feel it must be atmospheric contamination but don't have a fix for it. I know you're in the dust bowl but have you tried painting something outside on a nice calm day, just for fun? Keep it high up off the ground though, I know the air plume can pick up dust on the ground and deposit it in the paint, especially if the spray direction is downward at any time. A watered down concrete apron would be nice if you have one. I wind up suspending parts from a sky hook (tractor bucket loader).

Rod

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CNKS

07-03-2006 05:59:04

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Re: No! in reply to Rod (NH), 07-02-2006 20:19:15

I tried outside once on a calm (for KS) day -- still much more wind and fume swirling than I liked. 3 feet off concrete, I don't think I wet it. No change. Going to get another filter to replace the one with the stripped threads -- hope business owner is there, I'm going to take one of my parts and see what he says. Do you have any explanation of my description: Sand the peak off, resulting in a sanded peak surrounded by untouched paint in a slight depression? Although the link does not mention the sanded peak, it does mention the depression -- referring to solvent pop.

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Rod (NH)

07-03-2006 16:13:59

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Re: No! in reply to CNKS, 07-03-2006 05:59:04

The only explanation I have of if it is dirt. Although I would expect any dirt particles to be removed along with the sanding dust. Like B---, I have a hard time thinking it is solvent pop, despite the similarites with dirt, since I know you take due care with such things as reducer selection and flash times (the classic reasons for solvent pop). Furthemore if it was solvent pop, I would expect it to be much more widespread and uniform in the film than what I understand it is - simply due to the basic causes of it.

B--- brings up (up above) an interesting hybrid situation of foreign particles contaminated with oil/silicone, thereby taking on the appearance of both dirt and fisheyes. I don't know. I think it is dirt of some kind. Have you attempted to use any kind of magnification for a better visual of a typical spot? Both before and after sanding. I am thinking if you could possibly identify it as some type of foreign matter that way, it would eliminate the solvent pop from further consideration - at least I think it would.

Rod

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CNKS

07-03-2006 17:48:06

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Re: No! in reply to Rod (NH), 07-03-2006 16:13:59

I have not completely ruled out solvent pop, but two people I talked to today said dirt. Although they are probably right, dirt seems to be the 1st consideration, as it should be I guess--Read, if you haven't already my response to B's post, above.

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Rod (NH)

07-02-2006 16:22:20

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Re: No! in reply to Rod (NH), 07-02-2006 16:09:40

OOPS! I read your "tack coats" as "tack cloths". Sorry about that.

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1030 brian

07-02-2006 12:37:27

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 11:36:53

Hi Use 3/4 in. pvc. I, as well as alot of others I know have done this. It works Good! Plus it is alot cheaper. The only week point is the glued joints and they are good for 180psi. I'm sure that most of the compressors we all have only go up to 175 as well as mine. Just make suer to clean the joints with cleaner first. Good Luck!! Brian

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Rod (NH)

07-02-2006 16:16:45

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to 1030 brian, 07-02-2006 12:37:27

Hi Brian,

I hate to be blunt but I'll say that PVC is just about the worst possible choice for use with compressed air. If you were a commercial operation with employees, it would be illegal in most jurisdictions and you could be cited and fined. It is not recommended by any plastic piping manufacturer or any code that I am aware of for such use unless encased in protective steel. It doesn't need to be hit to fail in an unsafe manner. Please do a search on the tool forum at this site on pvc for some near-disaster stories, along with some links to recognized authorities on the matter. Here's one such link from a PVC piping manufacturer. If I were you, I'd consider a prompt replacement but It's your choice.

Rod

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1030 brian

07-02-2006 18:45:18

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to Rod (NH), 07-02-2006 16:16:45

If sc 40 pvc is so bad then why does it have a 400 psi rating stamped on it?

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Rod (NH)

07-02-2006 20:24:56

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to 1030 brian, 07-02-2006 18:45:18

Check with the manufacturer. I think you will find any pressure rating for PVC is predicated on cold (73°F) water (noncompressible) service only. Here's an example from Genova, a manufacturer of PVC commonly available in home centers. Here's some more reading on the subject. It's not a rating issue. It's a service and hazard analysis issue. No professional designer would ever select it for that service, regardless of any rating stamped on it. Again, it's your risk and your choice to continue using it for that purpose. Many have used it for years and have not had a problem. They are fortunate. Ignorance is bliss - until the unforseen happens.

Rod

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CNKS

07-02-2006 12:44:36

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to 1030 brian, 07-02-2006 12:37:27

PVC is ok until you hit it with something, then it's shrapnel -- wish it wasn't because it's so seay to work with.

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B-maniac

07-02-2006 12:15:33

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 11:36:53

I still don't believe that air contamination is your problem and ,like you ,hate to see you spend that money to find this out. My air supply system is a dinasaur compared to any out there including your present one. My compressor is a 1981 IR Type 30 pump and 80 gal tank that has never gotten the maint. or draining it calls for.My air lines are 2 twenty five foot air hoses,one before the filter (also a dinasaur)and one after. I do not have an air contamination problem.If anyone should,it should be me! This explains why all these expensive high tech air delivery and drying and filtering systems I hear people designing for their shops are OVERKILL and the money could be spent on areas that WILL make a difference. It's unfortunate that all of us on here havn't been able to figure out your problem,but I for one, just can't buy that it's an air contamination problem.Is there ever any measurable amount of debris in your pipe drops? Tear apart the throw-away filter at gun, any visable debris on the filter media? I'll bet not. A paint gun doesn't use enough air volume that debris would be forced through the media. Try using a finer micron paint strainer. Just grasping at straws here. Use a steel paint mixing stick instead of the free wooden ones they give you . Just thinking out loud here.Gotta be frustrating!

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CNKS

07-02-2006 13:18:59

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to B-maniac, 07-02-2006 12:15:33

The filter at the end of the line appears to be clean -- haven't looked inside my gun filter. What are you using for a filter? Mine are mid-range, about $130, nothing more than a wire mesh canister inside. The first was my original, when I built my paint booth I put an identical one in the booth about 20 pipe feet from the original -- as I said I have never found anything inside that one, water or otherwise. I wonder if there are some invisible to the eye things that I don't see? While I'm at it, I will describe my problem again. I am positive part of it is nothing more than lint, that I can deal with. The other is numerous small bumps -- there is a picture on PPG's web site that calls that solvent pop, also about the same as SW and DuPonts explanations, and every other one I have seen. The "bumps" do not break, and are very hard when dry. When the peak is sanded it does break and reveals a small hole, with the remnants of the peak inside. In other words a sanded area surrounded by recessed paint. All this can be sanded flat or nearly flat so that they are not noticeable after buffing. There are a few (number is insignificant) depressed areas in the unsanded paint, which are too deep to easily sand out without going to primer. These really don't look like fish eyes, but I don't know that I have even seen a fish eye. These aren't really objectionable and don't occur every time I paint. The bumps do. I don't want to spend $700 and get no results -- I might be willing to spend $250 for the 3 stage filter, but as I say my final filter is clean. As to the possible solvent pop: The problem gets worse as expected in the 2nd and 3rd coat, but it is visible in the first coat. I originally thought that solvent pop was caused by inadequate flash time, and/or applications that were too thick. Since it's in the first coat, flash time is not the problem. Approximating Frank Stafire's recommendation, I used Omni's medium reducer and very slow hardener, temp about 80 degrees, no change. No difference either with medium or slow reducer combined with slow hardener. The one thing I have not tried is Omni's fast reducer -- at 80-85 degree temperatures I don't think that's a good idea, but who knows? I do not use tack coats, and have not tried putting on say, 5 thin (move gun fast) coats instead of two or three full coats. I did buy a Sata spot gun and a Sata 2000 full size. Used the full size only once so far because I'm down to the small parts. Both of these cover completely in TWO coats -- over-priced, maybe but they are excellent guns. Maybe I'm putting it on too thick. But I have a Sharpe spot gun and a Sharpe Platinum full size, also a good gun. The Sata's both have better atomization, but the number of bumps have not changed. I'm darn sure not bragging, but my limited experience with those guns indicates that I can do as good a job as any body shop if I could get rid of the blasted bumps. Very little orange peel with either of them, and no reason to sand or buff otherwise, except for the positively identified lint. Any other thoughts are appreciated. Sorry for the length, but I don't know any other way to explain it.

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rustyj14

07-21-2006 17:59:47

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-02-2006 13:18:59

CNKS: Before you paint, check the neighbors--see if their kid is waxing his car, or applying Armor-all to the leather upholstery, or the dash board. If you have any of that product anywhere near your garage or spray booth, it will give you big fisheyes, or even if it is in your car, or on anything! The last place i worked, after several ruined paint jobs, all of the Armor-all was tossed in the garbage. And, a "fish-eye" will be a ring with a depressed area, with a darker center in it! They can be as small as a small pea, or as big as a quarter, dpending on how much silicone or oil is on the original finish, be it primer or paint!And, once they appear in the finish, as you are painting, you'd best either wash it all off,With an enamel thinner, or something similar, or stop there and let it dry and cure. then use FEE in the new paint when you start again! If you don't, then they will show again! Some writers here are hard-headed when it comes to fish-eyes, but i haven't found any way to get rid of them, except to add FEE to the paint, before you start painting! Rustyj

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CNKS

07-21-2006 19:27:25

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to rustyj14, 07-21-2006 17:59:47

Thanks, but I don't have fisheyes -- no kids, no silicone in the area -- have determined the problem is dirt, lint, whatever, have a lot of that.

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cannonball

07-26-2006 15:07:24

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Re: Do I really want to do this? in reply to CNKS, 07-21-2006 19:27:25

had a can of hardner that was bad made stuff come up like painting over dust...tried another can fixed it and i don't have near the filters you do..run your compressor a while to heat everything up even and then paint... have nice day MAY GOD BLESS THE USA

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