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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

High-build spray filler advice

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chuck130

08-23-2006 06:40:42




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First, is there such a thing. My wheels off my Ferguson are pitted; they have been sandblasted. What is the best way to prep these? I have already primed them with Nason Ful-poxy (to prevent rust). I have a Finishline III with a 4- tip set, so this may assist in any of you helping.

Thanks much - still new to the refinishing art




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Brad_bb

08-25-2006 15:16:04




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to chuck130, 08-23-2006 06:40:42  
I forgot... I have used a 1.4 tip to spray the Rust Defender without a problem. Eventually I would like to get a bigger tip for that, but the 1.4 isn"t a problem.



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Brad_bb

08-25-2006 15:13:42




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to chuck130, 08-23-2006 06:40:42  
I just finished bodyworking the front wheels for my tractor a couple weeks ago. I use sprayable filler called Rust Defender, http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/rustdefender.php
It is self etching and you don"t want to breathe it while spraying or sanding -use a respirator. You also don"t want to get the over spray on anything you care about as it will stick well. It is good stuff though and a real time saver. My process is to first strip the part to clean, bare metal, seal it in epoxy sealer primer (I use PPG products). Then you want to use regular spreadable filler to individually fill the deeper pits and problem areas. Then use a Chicago Pneumatic mini DA with 3 inch pad and 80 grit paper to sand down the filler. This is one of the best investment tools I own for bodywork. Repeat the spreadable if necessary. After that you can apply the spray able filler to fill all the little pits and go over the areas you"ve roughed out. You can control the amount of filler material you are putting on much better with this spray method so as not to apply too much and cause yourself more work than necessary. You can then use your mini DA and 80 grit to sand it out. Repeat this procedure as needed. The final coat should be sanded out with 180 grit. There will be some level of hand sanding needed too when doing wheels, but the mini DA saves a lot of work. Once you are down to the 180 grit and sanded out, the wheel will be looking quite nice. Now you can switch to filler primer like PPG K36 or RM DP20(which I prefer). Apply a guide fog coat over that and block it out with a firm foam pad and 320 grit. Repeat as needed. When you are satisfied, blow it all off, tac rag, and seal with PPG DPLF epoxy sealer primer, then follow with your paint. You can see some of these procedures on my tractor resto picture site.

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Rod (NH)

08-23-2006 11:11:00




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to chuck130, 08-23-2006 06:40:42  
Hi Chuck,

There is such a thing. It's sometimes referred to as a sprayable polyester, essentially sprayable "bondo". I've never used any but I understand it has about twice the film build per coat as a conventional surfacer. I think you need a larger tip to effectively spray it - something like a 2.0 mm, which you probably have in your set. Don't forget that anything you spray on to fill pits will cover the areas outside the pits as well. High film builds mean more sanding as most of the applied material will need to be sanded off. Lots of sanding on flat areas like typical automotive panels can be done with power methods. However, for a lot of tractor parts, I think including wheels, sanding with power equipment is limited. Any "bondo" type material (polyester) does not sand quite as easily as conventional surfacer so a lot of hand sanding could be frustrating. Which is probably the reason why I have not tried the stuff. For pits, I apply polyester finishing putty with a small plastic or hard rubber squeegee. The polyester finishing putty is more fluid than typical bondo but thicker than the sprayable variety. That way, the pits get filled in and the surrounding surfaces outside the pits get only a light coating. You may have to do a couple of applications like that but it minimizes the sanding that has to be done afterwards. I then finish up with a few coats of surfacer, which is very easy sanding, to get any remaining minor imperfections.

third party image Rod

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chuck130

08-23-2006 11:14:41




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to Rod (NH), 08-23-2006 11:11:00  
Thankyou, Rod. Your thorough explanation is truly appreciated. I now feel armed to tackle this job. Thanks again,

Chuck



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B-maniac

08-23-2006 19:17:58




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to chuck130, 08-23-2006 11:14:41  
One thing Rod didn't mention is that any high-build sprayable surfacer is going to need a catylist to cure it for any kind of durability and lack of shrinkage. Therefore it will most likely need an isocyanate catylist which will require supplied air respirator. Use the polyester type glaze filler like he said and you won't have the problem. Like he said,lots of work any way you look at it,but well worth it. People who just blast and paint have some nasty lookin' wheels.

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Rod (NH)

08-23-2006 15:31:31




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to chuck130, 08-23-2006 11:14:41  
You're welcome. Dealing with significantly pitted metal is a real pain, especially parts that have complex shapes with changing angles. If you want to see a visual of how I dealt with some pits using polyester finishing putty, take a look at photos 14, 15 and 16 here. I don't know if NASON offers the sprayable stuff but PPG does in their OMNI line as MX241. The tech sheet for that is here. You can try something like that if you want. Evercoat also makes it. It would be faster in application but, as I said, I think it would require significant hand sanding that could be otherwise be avoided. Others may have a different view.

Rod

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chuck130

08-24-2006 04:55:46




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to Rod (NH), 08-23-2006 15:31:31  
Thankyou, gentlemen. Rod, youir photo gallery was worth a million words. Looking at your pitting, I assess my wheels to have more of a scaling and I now think that a surfacer may do the trick. Does the epoxy primer need to be scuffed before applying a surfacer and, if I do need to apply some 3M spreadable putty, do I need to scuff the expoxy primer?



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Rod (NH)

08-24-2006 14:08:09




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to chuck130, 08-24-2006 04:55:46  
I'm not sure what you mean by "scaling". Perhaps just an uneven surface?. Any rust scaling present should have been removed by the sandblasting. There could be an uneven surface left though and it all depends on how uneven it is as to whether a surfacer can reasonably be anticipated to smooth it out - if that is indeed what it is. Any chance of posting a close up picture? Surfacers are quite limited in their ability to fill pits and smooth out uneven areas, despite any reference to "high build". For example, a typical surfacer build per coat is usually 1.5-2 mils. Even K-38, PPG's premium surfacer and promoted as "high build" only claims 2.5 mils per coat. They are really for filling minor sandscratches and such and are usually applied using 2-4 coats. In retrospect, that fender of mine should have had the polyester putty applied all over it. It took nine coats of surfacer to take care of the more minor pits outside the area shown where I had used the putty. I simply underestimated the depth of the remaining pits. The spray version of polyester filler, PPG OMNI MX-241 for example, claims a film build of 2-3 mils per coat with 2-3 coats recommended. If your pits or irregularities are deeper than about 8-10 mils, I think you would be expecting too much from a surfacer and need something more like the spreadable polyester to be applied first. If not, then a surfacer could do the trick, especially if you are prepared to apply a good number of coats (not all at once though). I would keep the application to no more than 4 coats at a time before drying and sanding.

The tech sheet for the NASON epoxy is very unclear as to recoat periods. Not knowing and never having used that product myself, I'd give the surface a good scuffing before applying a surfacer on top of it. If I were to apply the polyester finishing putty, I would do more than just scuff. My tendency in that case would be to get a good scratch with say 80 grit paper and then apply the putty. After sanding the putty, I'd apply another coat or two of the epoxy and follow up with a surfacer within 24 hours.

Regarding a surfacer, you should be aware that many such products contain isocyanates in any required hardener/activator/catalyst, as B--- indicates. If you do not have fresh air breathing equipment, your choices are therefore limited in available surfacer products. They would be the lacquer-based acrylic surfacers such as PPG's OMNI MP-181 or DuPont's 131S. I see that NASON also has an acrylic surfacer that could be used but I have never used that. There is also the possibility of a premium non-iso 2K surfacer (PPG's NCP-250) if you are willing to pay significantly more money for it. I don't have a price for that but perhaps someone who does can jump in with an of-the-street price to give you an idea. I can assure you that it's not cheap.

Rod

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chuck130

08-25-2006 05:24:21




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 Re: High-build spray filler advice in reply to Rod (NH), 08-24-2006 14:08:09  
Rod, I have tried posting pictures and my computer (I use it at work - don't have a home one) won't allow it, for whatever reason. I check all you say, I'll give it a go this weekend and keep you posted.



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