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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

AC PO Nuts....

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Rod (NH)

09-19-2006 07:56:27




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AC PO Nuts...

Here's a sample of actual complete sprayouts for PPG's OMNI MTK60080 (economy line) and Deltron DCC60080 (premium line, "Concept") single stage acrylic urethane colors:

third party image

The tractor is with MTK and the blower housing is with DCC. Even though they are the same code number, they use different mixing tints since they are not in the same line. I noticed that the actual formula for the DCC seems to have been developed from a computer match of something, whereas the MTK formula does not. This goes to show that you cannot always go by just code number when dealing with old tractor colors, even within the same manufacturer's offerings. You really have to do sample srayouts or at least color swatches of the possibilities. Or trust someone else's judgment. I personally think that the MTK gives a better representation of the original shade of that early persian orange. The DCC is a brighter, less brownish color that some might prefer for that reason alone. I am not an originality purist by any means. I simply prefer the more "pumpkin" shade of the MTK. It just so happens that I also think it's closer to the original.

third party image Rod

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souNdguy

09-21-2006 06:49:12




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to Rod (NH), 09-19-2006 07:56:27  
Any chance that the darker is an attempt to match persian orange 2, and the other lighter is a code for persian orange 1 ?

Soundguy



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Rod (NH)

09-21-2006 17:38:49




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to souNdguy, 09-21-2006 06:49:12  
I don't think so souNdguy. They are the same code number, but one is a premium paint and the other is an economy one. That later persian orange (#2) is best represented by code 60396 and not 60080. I believe 60080 (in MTK) is the best match I have seen for the early persian orange (#1). I think the shade difference is either inherent in the different mix formulas (for the same code) or the fellow who mixed up the 60080 premium product (DCC) blew the mix in some way as Jason suggests. I don't know which possibility is correct. Or if there's another reason. Ideally, they should have been the same.

Rod

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jason(ma)

09-20-2006 04:15:25




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to Rod (NH), 09-19-2006 07:56:27  
to me your concept 60080 to omni 60080 is looking further off than my concept 60080 to omni 60080. I ended up with a free pint of the wrong concept 60080 when I bought my paint. What Tim in Exeter told me was that is a pretty full recipe and he ran outta room. Where this was your jobber's first time mixing the concept 60080 it makes me wonder. Now I do see a differnce between omni and concept but not that much.

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Rod (NH)

09-20-2006 17:29:35




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to jason(ma), 09-20-2006 04:15:25  
It's certainly possible the mix is off. As you know, that DCC formula is not in PPG's computer system. He had to have it faxed to him from PPG. He would have turned me away altogether if you hadn't previously tipped me off that a call to PPG could be needed. "Ran outta room"? You mean he couldn't fit the mix measures called for into the can? If that's the case he should have had a clue that something was amiss the first time around. Do you know how he resolved that issue the second time? I don't know what the units are in mix formulas. Here's the DCC formula for the 60080. There's only four ingedients. The units sure aren't ml since that would be more than a quart. Could be grams, I don't know. Here's the MTK formula for the 60080 for comparison. And here's my sample swatches of the two after I purchased the DCC and decided not use it in conjunction with MTK on the same piece of equipment. The difference seems a little less dramatic there than on the full sized sprayouts. Here's another comparison sprayout shot - the pillow block is the DCC:

third party image

I know the difference is not fade of the MTK. The framework the pillow block is sitting on was done in MTK about 4 months ago. The rest of the tractor (that shows) was done 4 years ago. There is no noticeable difference between the old and the new MTK, even though the tractor is outside 24/7. The old and new MTK applications are also done with different mix batches done at different times, although by the same person. I do note that the DCC mix was done by a different individual so that may have some bearing on it all, although it shouldn't.

I don't know how to get around the possibility of a poor/half-hazard mix from a jobber unless you can prove it's obviously way off or you are a complaining high dollar customer - other than buying more from a different jobber and hoping he takes more care in the process. That's the fix that CNKS might be in with his IH red. I don't have the commitment to the DCC to pursue the matter further, mainly because of the significantly higher cost relative to the MTK. I have had very good luck with the MTK and I fail to see any justifiable incremental performance advantage in moving from it to DCC, even if the color was a closer match. At least for overall tractor work. Similar reasoning applies to my relatively recent switch (down) from DPLF (formerly DP) to OMNI MP170, although color was not a consideration in that move.

Rod

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CNKS

09-21-2006 17:39:20




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to Rod (NH), 09-20-2006 17:29:35  
The employee at my jobber now does a good job. I still don't know what happened with the one tractor that was too orange, an obvious error. But, I have given up finding the absolute "correct" color, and have him change the toners in pint quantities until I'm satisfied. That's about $18 a pint for MTK -- worth it to get a color I'm satisfied with. I guessed at the amount to switch the orange and red toners and was initially satisfied with the first mix. It's ok, but I should had him do it one more time. It is measured in grams. It has to be mixed well to get the correct weight, depending on whether it comes from the top or bottom of the container, it can be underfilled or overfilled -- he will "run out of room" if he removes the top part of an unmixed container -- the pigment settles to the bottom--it will take more of the thin stuff and less of the thick. I have seen the toners, but have never seen exactly how they were used.

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Rod (NH)

09-21-2006 18:05:50




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to CNKS, 09-21-2006 17:39:20  
That makes sense. If he "ran out of room" it would appear he wasn't keeping the tints properly agitated (mixed) or opened a new tint can and didn't mix it well enough. If that's true, he never should have sold the resulting mix. Seems it would be obvious to him that he did something wrong and should have corrected the matter before proceeding. I hope it's not something like "well, it's not for a match on a mercedes - just an old farm tractor color and nobody will ever know the difference". That could be my problem with the poor DCC match also. That $18 sounds high for a pint. A week ago I bought a qt of that orange MTK for $19.65 (list was $24.56). A qt of MP170 was $15.50. That was for a walk-in customer - no one pays the stated "sugg list", although it's always noted on the sales slip. Your red would probably be a little more - but not greatly so. Could be the price is highly dependent on area - don't know.

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CNKS

09-21-2006 18:40:43




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to Rod (NH), 09-21-2006 18:05:50  
No other PPG competition, except for another dealer 20 miles away. Only other dealer is DuPont, he is probably higher. My prices seem to be the highest of anyone who has posted the price on this forum. Really get stuck for small quantities, and red is as expensive as you can get. I pay $96.90/gal of IH 2150 MTK, that converts to $12.11/pint. A 50% increase in price for a pint is way too much. On the other hand I got a qt of IH 901, PPG 8665 for 21.36, and a qt of silver GM rally wheel color for the rims for the same price.

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CNKS

09-21-2006 18:42:29




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 Re: AC PO Nuts.... in reply to CNKS, 09-21-2006 18:40:43  
The 901 is white.



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