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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

painting problem

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Jeff Wilcox

11-04-2006 14:40:09




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I"m restoring a "53 Ferguson TO 30. A friend is teaching me how to paint with an HVLP gun and my first efforts look really good. We used Nason acrylic enamel. The problem is that the finish is very easy to scratch - you can put a noticeable scratch in it with the rounded edge of your fingernail. Should I go to base coat and clear coat, or something else?




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Rod (NH)

11-06-2006 09:25:16




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Jeff Wilcox, 11-04-2006 14:40:09  
Hi Jeff,

Just how hard are you dragging a fingernail across it? Most paints can be noticeably marred after dragging a fingernail across them, even with only light to moderate pressure. Here's some tests I just did. No sharp fingernail edges. I used what I would call a light to moderate pressure and backdragged my thumbnail across the paint where the gloss was high and any marring would be easily seen.

1. DuPont Centari acrylic enamel single stage - catalyzed. Applied about one week. Leaves a noticeable mark.

2. DuPont Centari acrylic enamel single stage - catalyzed. Applied about five years. Leaves a noticeable mark.

3. DuPont Centari acrylic enamel single stage - uncatayzed. Applied about two weeks. Leaves a noticeable mark.

4. PPG DCC acrylic urethane single stage - catalyzed. Applied about seven weeks. Leaves a noticeable mark.

5. PPG OMNI MTK acrylic urethane single stage - catalyzed. Applied about seven months. Leaves a noticeable mark.

6. PPG OMNI MC acrylic urethane clear over single stage - catalyzed. Applied about four years. Leaves a noticeable mark.

7. Toyota OEM urethane clear (BC/CC) - Applied 5+ years - Leaves a noticeable mark.

8. Honda OEM urethane clear (BC/CC) - Applied 7+ years - Leaves a noticeable mark.

I believe any of the above examples can easily be corrected with a very mild polish. They are minor but still noticeable. Doing the same thing with no obvious applied pressure, there were no marks on any of them. Are you sure you are not expecting too much from the paint?

third party image Rod

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Jeff Wilcox

11-06-2006 19:37:02




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Rod (NH), 11-06-2006 09:25:16  
Rod- thanks for the reply. Maybe I am expecting too much. I think what I want is like a car finish that is super durable. But even the semi gloss paint on my walls at home doesn't leave a noticeable mark when dragged with a fingernail. Perhaps I won't find what I want. Jeff



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B-maniac

11-04-2006 17:53:26




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Jeff Wilcox, 11-04-2006 14:40:09  
Depends on how long it has dried and whether you used a catylist in it or not. With no catylist,you can expect it to be scratchable for maybe a month or so. With catylist,it should be out of being scratchable in a week.Depends , too,on how cold it was at spraying and what temp rated reducer you used. Give it some time.It is still old technology. The stuff I use can be gone over with the "sharp" ends of a fingernail after 2 days and never leave a mark. But it ain't cheap! The older the chemistry , the more patience you must have with it.Good Luck!

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Jeff Wilcox

11-07-2006 14:27:07




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 Re: painting problem in reply to B-maniac, 11-04-2006 17:53:26  
Please let me know what product you are using - cost isn't a factor for me. thanks



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Jeff Wilcox

11-06-2006 05:53:06




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 Re: painting problem in reply to B-maniac, 11-04-2006 17:53:26  
What is the product that you use? We did put catalyst in the paint and it has been weeks since it was sprayed. I would like to switch to something that works, no matter how much more it costs. Also, will the product that you use stick to the acrylic enamel without stripping it off first? thanks



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B-maniac

11-06-2006 19:50:52




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Jeff Wilcox, 11-06-2006 05:53:06  
I guess I'm seeing two words used here to describe what may be two different things. In your original post,you said your fingernail would leave noticeable "scratch" in the paint. Then when Rod explains it,he says in all his tests that it leaves a noticeable "mark" . I just went out and did the test on my "B" and my '66 GTO,and conclude that it does leave a very faint "mark" but not a scratch. In my opinion the "mark" is from whatever your nail is made of being deposited ON the paint rather than actually scratching the paint,or the nail is slightly abrasive in composition and does slightly scratch the paint.Even these only showed up under florescent lights and not outside.It actually makes more of a mark backdragging the nail than it does using the sharp edge of the nail??? The GTO : BC/CC Imron Poly-Urethane Clear/Catylist 6yrs old. The "B": BC/CC PPG DC 3000 Acrylic Urethane Clear/DCH 3085 Catylist 2 Mos. old. I'm like Rod though, any paint can be "marked" or "scratched" if you try hard enough. It's hard for us to make a valid judgement on your paint's softness over the internet. The PPG DC 3000/DCH 3085 Cat. is all I use now and I love it. It dries fast and hard and looks excellent , and I AM fussy. Ever notice how acrylic enamel or alkyd enamel never looks as glossy after a couple days dry time as it did the day you painted it? Kinda sinks in or drys down a little. This clear stays looking "wet" just like the day I painted it. On small parts it only takes one coat. The only reason I even put two coats on the larger sheet metal parts or cars is so you have room to sand and buff if you get dirt etc. You don't have to "anticipate" the flow out of this like some of the other paints. You spray it just as wet as you want it to look. You can run it if you try hard,but this stuff just flat stays put. If you put it on a little "orange-peely" with the hope that it will flow out flat in 5 min.,it won't! Spray it the way you want to see it. Just scuff with fine scotchbrite pad WITH WATER preferably from hose. You may just want to clear the sheetmetal parts. I assume the tractor came out the right color shade. If you go with single stage urethane , theres a good chance it won't match and you will have to re-paint the whole tractor. Just clear the sheet metal parts. Who cares if the castings scratch easy,you will never see it. Sorry so long,but you asked. Good Luck.

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JEFF WILCOX

01-02-2007 19:04:38




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 Re: painting problem in reply to B-maniac, 11-06-2006 19:50:52  
I have a few more questions from our discussion in Nov. about painting. I assume that BC/CC means base coat and clear coat. Correct? Does PPG DC 3000 indicate the base coat? And what does Acrylic Urethane Clear mean? Sorry to be so ignorant, but the guy who taught me how to paint said that I should avoid trying to use base coat and clear coat because they were "activated" and very toxic. I have an exhuast system in my garage(homemade). Can I safely use the BC/CC stuff in my garage? Can I go back and "touch up" areas with BC/CC paint without repainting the whole item? I can get the temp in my garage up to 70 degrees pretty easily, but the fresh air that comes in and goes out my exhaust fan is cold, outside air. Are there different temp paints? Is "reuducer" the same as thinner? thanks

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Frank Stalfire

11-06-2006 19:35:07




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Jeff Wilcox, 11-06-2006 05:53:06  
Sounds like the problem you are having is just a case of uncured paint, it has only been a week, it's cold, film is still loaded with solvent, it wont matter how much you spend on paint, it needs to cure and you need to get as much solvent out of the film as possible, heat and time our you biggest friend in these cases
Frank



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Jeff Wilcox

11-06-2006 19:41:36




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Frank Stalfire, 11-06-2006 19:35:07  
Frank - I have some parts that have been painted for 2 months that still leave a very obvious mark with the slightest pressure. Will a base coat and clearcoat(like an automotive finish) solve my problem?



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Frank Stalfire

11-06-2006 20:17:44




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Jeff Wilcox, 11-06-2006 19:41:36  
Hi, it wont help with out heat, with heat it takes up to 3 months to cure, so you can imagine without heat how long. there is however no doubt that a catalyzed system will be better but you still need to overcome the dryng issue, and I would be leary of using enamel resins, alkyd is OK, and stick to acrylics because of the temp, urethane will be the biggest fan of heat, I never did ask of your situation, what do have for heat?

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Jeff Wilcox

11-07-2006 14:32:20




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Frank Stalfire, 11-06-2006 20:17:44  
Frank - I have a 2-car attached garage with a radiant, gas-fired heater. I'm setting up an exhaust system that will clear all the mist out as I paint. I can set the thermostat up as high as I want. thanks



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DurangoCase

11-10-2006 10:20:37




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 Re: painting problem in reply to Jeff Wilcox, 11-07-2006 14:32:20  
1500W or 2500W speeds things up.



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