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6 volt vs. 12 volt

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Gerald Wallace

03-20-2007 11:39:29




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Just bought a dandy old Ford 600 that's not quite as old as I am. It has the original 6 volt system (which is the only thing we had when I was a kid on the farm). What's all the rush to convert to 12 volts? Must be a good reason since the conversion is so popular. Someone please tell me why?




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Mike M

03-22-2007 10:21:35




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to Gerald Wallace, 03-20-2007 11:39:29  
I think the weakest link in a 6 volt system is the batteries just aren't any good and don't last. I'm going to have to try those Optima batteries,but they are real expensive.



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G. Wallace

03-22-2007 10:35:59




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to Mike M, 03-22-2007 10:21:35  
Thanks for the "heads up" Mike. No one is telling me to stick with the original system. All the advice I'm receiving probably sounds like common sense to guys with experience, but it's good to have the all the logic in one place. Apparently there are lots of practical reasons to dump the 6 volt system, and only one (originality) to keep it. Anyway, I'm convinced.

GW in MO



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brad_bb

03-23-2007 13:55:56




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 IMO in reply to G. Wallace, 03-22-2007 10:35:59  
I"ve been running my 55 960 for 7 years with the original 6V system. I"ve never had a problem with it except needing to replace the battery once. I don"t think there is a problem with 6V batteries, but lead acid batteries in general are old technology and don"t last as long as a moder Optima or even a sealed lead acid battery. I only use my tractor for mowing, post hole digging and once used it with a 2 bottom plow. I"ve not had a need for 12V. Frankly if you do your regular maintenance, I don"t think there"s anything wrong with the 6V system at all. I"ve now purchased a 6V Optima (I love Optimas and have replaced every vehicle battery I own with one) for my 960 and even made a custom battery hold down bracked and rod, which I had zinc plated and it doesn"t look out of place at all. I need to update my picture page and will in the next few weeks. If you don"t have a specific need for 12V to run some equipment, I don"t see a need to convert. I also get the generator rebuilt for $80. It didn"t even really need it, but since its a total restoration I wanted it in new condition. I doubt that most people are using their antique tractor as their main workhorse day in and day out, so components like batteries and generators should be wearing out on a regular basis.

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glennster

03-22-2007 11:31:35




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to G. Wallace, 03-22-2007 10:35:59  
i have both 6 and 12v converted farmalls. the 12v definately will spin the motors over quicker. some thing i have noticed, the 12v tractor starter bendix dont seem to last as long as the 6v tractors. mebbe its just me. as long as your 6v is still working, i'd leave it as is. i can get 6v gennys rebuilt for 80.00. i have been using 6v batteries from the interstate guy and also napa. the farm and fleet batteries dont seem to last more than 2 years.

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G. Wallace

03-21-2007 08:50:44




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to Gerald Wallace, 03-20-2007 11:39:29  
Thanks for the tutorial guys. Right now the 6 volt seems to be working fine, but everything you say convinces me to get that conversion kit on the shelf and ready to go at the first hiccup. Appreciate the education from a couple of guys who obviously know what you're talking about.

GW in MO



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Rod (NH)

03-20-2007 15:42:57




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to Gerald Wallace, 03-20-2007 11:39:29  
Hi Gerald,

Everything Soundguy said and I'll add:

Reliability. The 12v, electronically regulated alternator is simply more reliable and consistent than the old generator/mechanical voltage regulator/cutout combination. Also greater available ampacity if needed to run auxiliary lights or other equipment.

Cheaper. Try pricing out rebuilt vintage generators and mechanical regulators as compared to the internally regulated Delco 10SI, which is readily available at your local NAPA. Big difference.

If the old 6v system works well for you or you are a purist for originality, then stick with it. However, if you have to rely on your tractor(s) for any work and the 6v charging system needs repair, then you should consider changing it out to a 12v alternator system and be done with it. I did that to both my AC-B and my Oliver77 some years ago and never looked back. I haven't regretted it. I should have done it a lot sooner.

third party image Rod

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souNdguy

03-20-2007 11:51:20




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to Gerald Wallace, 03-20-2007 11:39:29  
'cuz it's easier to slap in a 39$ walmart car battery, and a 25-35$ reman delco 10-si alternator and a 5$ dropping resistor in an afternoon than it is to pull the head and do a valve job, or pull pistons for rings..

In other words.. lots people use 12v as a bandaid for a slightly tired engine that still has some working years left in her.

The other reason is a 'true' need for 12v.. like needing to run 12v implements.. like a sprayer.. or the need to have a 'vehicle' that can jump your truck when the dome lamp gets left on.. etc..

Lesser reason might be a lack of a good auto-electric rebuilder in the area that can keep the 6v starter's and generators rebuilt..

Soundguy

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Cornpicker

03-23-2007 18:43:48




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to souNdguy, 03-20-2007 11:51:20  
Simple answer. From a technical point the reason to change is that it improves starting performance. Original motors that use 6 volt systems were often hard starting and a 12 volt system improves starting performance. I grew up with 6 volt tractors that we would park on a hill @ lunch so we could roll them down the hill and start them after we ate.

There are a couple of simple reasons that the 6 volt system had starting issues. 1. Getting the same torque and speed out of a 6 volt starter that a 12 volt starter has requires it to physically larger. 2. Weak spark. When the starting motor is engaged the ignition coil has a weaker spark on 6 volt systems. For the ones of you that have experience with 6 volt systems, you will have noticed that they will often start when you release the start button.

Bottom Line: If you don't have starting issues there is no technical reason to change.

Now for the technical reasons. You notice 6 volt systems do not have a resistor on the ignition coil. The reason that a resistor is used is that when it is used correctly it keeps the voltage level the same on the ignition coil, when charging or with the starter engaged .

When the starter is engaged the battery voltage drops. The greater it drops the lower the voltage to the ignition coil, the lower the voltage on the ignition coil the weaker the spark.

An ignition coil can be designed to operate @ any voltage. The correct charging voltage for a 6 volt battery is 7.2 volts. Therefore the coil has to be designed to operate @ the charging voltage of 7.2 volts, but, the voltage @ the igniton coil will be less than charging voltage when the starter is engaged.

The nominal voltage of a charged 6 volt battery is 6.2 volts. But when the starter is engaged the voltage will drop. The amount depends on several factors, the temperature of the engine, the condition of the battery, how long the starter is engaged, etc., but the bottom line it drops, which equals to low ignition coil voltage, which equals low spark, which equals starting issues. This is compounded by the fact that the coil is designed to operate @ 7.2 volts.

The resistor that is used on 12 volt systems when wired correctly solves that problem, by using a bypass switch around the resistor when the starter is engaged. On cars the by-pass switch is in the solenoids. That is what the extra small terminal on the solenoid is for. Probably very few conversions are wired correctly, which usually isn't a problem as they start fine when wired incorrectly.

I had a buddy back in the 60's who converted a '53 ford pickup over to a 12 volt system and had a bad starting problem. It just would not start with the starter. He had it to several mechanics it was tuned to the tee, but still would not start. The problem he installed a dropping resistor to the ignition coil, but didn't wire up the solenoid bypass switch. A wire from the extra terminal on the solenoid directly to the coil and magic. It started like a champ. If you want to keep the tractor close to original and still have a 12 volt electrial system, change out the 6 volt components such as, the light bulbs, add a dropping resistor on the ignition coil and a 12 volt battery. Then adjust the mechanical regulator to put out 14.2 volts. The 6 volt generators that I have experimented with can produce 12 volts if the regulator is set up.

Disclaimer:
This is strictly experimental as it has not been tested for safety, equipment damage or other problems, so use this information @ your on risk.
In fact an engineer would probably have a dozen reasons that it won't work.

Bottom Line:
It can work. I have converted some systems using this method without any problems, but it has not been evaluated for possibile safety, equipment damage or other issues, so use this information @ your on risk.

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soundguy

03-23-2007 20:46:23




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to Cornpicker, 03-23-2007 18:43:48  
Some 6v systems DO use ignition resistors. .. ford in particular.. etc.. 1939-1950

Soundguy



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kennc

04-15-2007 04:13:16




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to soundguy, 03-23-2007 20:46:23  
Ford cars and trucks used a resistor on 6 volt systems back in the late 30's and 40's it was on the firewall in front of the steering whell. you could easily by-pass it for hard starting with a coin.



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souNdguy

04-16-2007 05:32:20




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to kennc, 04-15-2007 04:13:16  
Ideally it would have been a ballast resistor with a thermal coeficient in relation to it's resistance. Taht is.. when cold, it is a very low resistance.. ( for easier starting ).. then it warms up to a higher resistance, for prolonged coil and point life. Ford tractors like the 9n, 2n, and early 8n used this as far back as 1939.

Soundguy



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CornPicker

04-14-2007 12:33:20




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 Re: 6 volt vs. 12 volt in reply to soundguy, 03-23-2007 20:46:23  
I doubt if any orginial 6 volt systems had an ignition resistor. The resistors are added as part of the conversion to 12 volts. I grew up with 6 volt systems an I never seen an ignition resistor on a 6 volt system. The 1st one I saw was on a "55 Chevy car, it was a white block mounted on the firewall. Chevy changed to a 12 system in "55. A lot of the 50 model cars with 12 volt systems were hard starting, because the solenoid had a switch in them to bypass the resistor when the starter was engaged. The contact tips would get pitted and not make good contact. The starter would pull the battery voltage down and the resistor would drop the coil voltage lower. Result real weak spark, which resulted in hard starting.

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