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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Surface prep

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Scott KY

06-06-2007 04:29:10




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I'm in the process of painting a DC case. This tractor has a wide front axle. So far I have stripped the old paint down to bare metal on the front axle and the engine. The store that sells dupont recommended I spray the bear metal with Evercoat dura build which I have done on the axle and engine. After researching this sight it appears I should have used an epoxy primer first. Should I strip the dura-build and start over? Or leave it and do the rest of the tractor with primer and then the dura-build?

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PhilC

07-01-2007 06:44:51




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to B-maniac, 06-06-2007 04:29:10  

R Matthew Songer said: Three things that are true to painting no matter what detailed advice you follow are:

1) Clean, sound substrate

2) Quality products

3) Patience

Everything else can be relative.


I'd add a few more:

1) Use the same brand product start to finish

2) Get, and read, the tech sheets for the products you're using

3) There's no such thing as too clean!

Rod is dead on with regard to epoxy primer, it's the best approach for an application where an etch prime isn't best suited. Like he said, an etch prime would be fine for a primo piece of bare sheetmetal where one could go direct to sealer and then topcoat, but that's not likely on most of the older sheetmetal.

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R Matthew Songer

06-26-2007 08:58:34




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Scott KY, 06-06-2007 04:29:10  
Three things that are true to painting no matter what detailed advice you follow are:

1) Clean, sound substrate
2) Quality products
3) Patience

Everything else can be relative.



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Rod (NH)

06-06-2007 12:37:07




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Scott KY, 06-06-2007 04:29:10  
Hi Scott,

I've never used that particular product but I have used similar ones on the past. I have looked at the manufacturer's spec sheet here. It appears it is an old technology, lacquer-based product that is marketed as a dual purpose primer and surfacer combined. If you go over the spec sheet carefully, you will notice for the best adhesion and corrosion resistance, the manufacturer recommends applying a dedicated etch primer under it on bare metal. Or keep the direct application to bare metal to very small areas. This is because this type of product is not the best choice when applied directly to bare metal. That's true for all similar lacquer-based primer products, not just the Dura Build.

I'll give you my own thoughts. The choice of any combination primer-surfacer product is not the best choice for bare metal, especially the relatively rough surfaces of cast and forged products. A surfacer product is intended for filling of minor sandscratches, etc and is intended to be sanded after application. Your axle is probably forged and your engine block is cast. Neither is smooth like sheet metal, nor are they intended to be. Unless you want to spend an awful lot of time sanding, a surfacer is not even the correct product for the application. Attempting to make cast and forged components have a mirror finish is a waste of time as far as I am concerned. Plus it will not look "right". Save that effort for the sheet metal parts.

The best choice of primer for cast or forged products (or any bare metal for that matter) is a non-sanding product that has excellent adhesion and corrosion resistance. That's a two-part automotive epoxy. That's my opinion and it's what I use exclusively. Some will argue that an etch primer is just as good, but I'm not one of them. An etch primer is most always recommended to be followed by a surfacer or other primer prior to applying the topcoat. That leaves the application of two separate products before the color. And with the surfacer, you should plan on a lot of sanding. That can be avoided by the use of a non-sanding epoxy with the color applied directly thereafter. No sanding required. And you will have the very best adhesion and corrosion resistance. You need to be aware of the time window for topcoating the epoxy however.

I am not going to advise you to remove the Dura Build. That's your decision. You have time, effort and money already expended with it. I believe it will work as it is, but it's not as good as if the choice had been an epoxy instead. I think there are only two reasons to use any lacquer-based primer-surfacer product given today's choice of better materials: 1) they're inexpensive and 2) if a surfacer is needed or desired, they do not require isocyanate-containing additives and therefore can be safely used with a standard cartridge respirator instead of a supplied-air arrangement.

third party image Rod

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Farmall MD nut

06-09-2007 14:33:01




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Rod (NH), 06-06-2007 12:37:07  
Hey Rod, will this epoxy primer smooth out some of the roughness in castings?

"You need to be aware of the time window for topcoating the epoxy however." Does this mean the final paint color? In other words, do you have to paint it shortly after primer? Thanks, Doug



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Rod (NH)

06-09-2007 17:28:33




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Farmall MD nut, 06-09-2007 14:33:01  
Hi Doug,

No, the epoxy is a primer only. It has no filling ability to any appreciable extent, although two coats will fill a typical white metal blast profile. It's not for filling sandscratches (at least those obtained with the coarser grits) or other imperfections. For that you want some kind of surfacer product. Most automotive surfacers have filling ability up to a few mills deep, usually with several coats and a quite a bit of sanding. They are intended to be sanded so they sand quite easily. In fact, most of what is applied will wind up being sanded off in the process of getting a smooth surface. If the depth of imperfections is more than just a few thousandths, then different measures are probably called for. One choice would be a sprayable polyester (sprayable bondo) but that usually requires a larger tip and needle size for serious application. Another choice would be a spreadable polyester finishing putty. No matter what choice you make, there will be a lot of sanding involved. And for many tractor parts, that's probably hand sanding. A mini 2 or 3 inch pneumatic RO sander can be put to some use if you have one. There will still be a lot of hand work however. For sheet metal, filling rust pits is a real PITA, using the spreadable finishing putty, but the result is generally worth the trouble. To approach typical castings that way is not my kind of tea. You'd have to want to do it real bad and I don't think it would look right when done, but hey, to each his own. If mirror-finish castings are desired, it can be done if you want to invest the effort.

As far as the epoxy time window goes, yes, there is a time period (window) after application of the epoxy during which the topcoat should be applied. That period varies with the epoxy brand and exact product. I've seen it as short as 24 hours and as long as 7 days. The PPG OMNI MP170 epoxy that is mentioned a lot on this forum has a window of 3 days. The purpose for that is to obtain a good chemical bond between the epoxy and the topcoat. If you fail to meet that window, most epoxies recommend you then scuff sand, say with a Scotch-Brite pad, and re-apply a coat of epoxy prior to proceeding to your color topcoat (or surfacer product, if used) within the newly established window period. The reason for that is to obtain the best adhesion of the topcoat because the topcoat will no longer chemically bond with the epoxy after the window has passed. The epoxy will have cured too long for that to happen.

third party image Rod

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Farmall MD nut

06-10-2007 02:53:22




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Rod (NH), 06-09-2007 17:28:33  
Thanks alot Rod. Yeah, I agree with ya about finished castings, they don't look right. I was just curious as to how much an epoxy would fill. When I hear the term "Epoxy" I think of a thick gooey substance, which I figured a primer would be thin, but didn't know how thin.

Epoxy primer seems to be the sh*t. I LOVE the fact you don't have to scuff the primer to paint topcoat on.(within window of course)

Thanks for the info and your time Rod. Doug

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Scott KY

06-06-2007 13:45:26




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Rod (NH), 06-06-2007 12:37:07  
Thanks for your imput. I'll listen to you guys next time!



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Rod (NH)

06-06-2007 16:33:47




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Scott KY, 06-06-2007 13:45:26  
Hopefully you'll get some other advice also. Perhaps different advice. Not everyone agrees on the specifics of painting, just like most other things. Get different opinions and select the one that you think makes the most sense, given you own situation and budget. There is usually more than one way to do things and in painting, there are many, many different choices in materials (and prices) to choose from.

Rod

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B-maniac

06-06-2007 19:34:58




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 Re: Surface prep in reply to Rod (NH), 06-06-2007 16:33:47  
I agree with Rod 100% on this one. Again , ask people who have been there as appose to "sales" people. History shows I have no use for most of these weasles who's allegiance is to a spread sheet instead of the customer.



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