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questions before painting begins

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jr356

03-12-2008 18:15:56




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I'm ready to begin spraying my first restoration: 1946 Ford 2N. this is a working hobby tractor, I seek a durable and reasonably attractive finish for a first timer. Any problems with the following plan?

Purchased Omni AU epoxy primer, color, and surfacer. Will follow instructions as written.

Questions:
HVLP instructions state maintain 21 PSI at gun for 10 PSI at cap. Does this mean maintain 21 PSI while gun is spraying, or under static no-spray condition? Paint calls for 10 PSI at cap.

I have "slow" retarder. Dealer says this is good for 65 - 85 ambient temps. ok?

Plan is to shoot color over epoxy on the cast parts. Sequence for fenders and hood: bodywork, epoxy, surfacer, sand, color.

3-day re-coat period over epoxy will be observed; oportunity to paint is on weekends only.

thanks for your input, Jim

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jr356

03-15-2008 19:08:55




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-12-2008 18:15:56  
Thanks B-maniac. Finally got everything ready to go today, will start on the three pieces of the front axle. hope to spray tomorrow. First time equipment set-up takes some time, thought, and so many runs to the store for fittings. The actual spraying feels like an after-thought.



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B-maniac

03-14-2008 18:55:11




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-12-2008 18:15:56  
Sounds like you are ready to go.Very good advise from all and you've done your homework. Only thing I might add is if you don't want to waste any paint "practicing" on a scrap panel then at least start your adventure on the rough castings or the backs of your fenders until you have a feel for what the paint "wants" so that by the time you get to your "fussy" parts (ie hood fender fronts etc)you have a better grasp on it and should be ready to get a good gloss without runs. I'm sure you don't want to post back in a month on the best way to get rid of runs and/or dry-spray. Good luck!

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jr356

03-13-2008 17:44:48




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-12-2008 18:15:56  
Ok got my numbers in hand now:

MTK, MR186 Reducer, MH168 Hardener

MP182 Surfacer, MH165 Hardener

MP170 Epoxy primer, MP175 catalyst.

These appear reasonable- Daytime temps are currently in mid-70's to mid-80's.
thanks again, Jim



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jr356

03-13-2008 05:48:05




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-12-2008 18:15:56  
Rod,
You are correct, I do not plan to use a retarder. I appreciate ya"ll taking time to write, your input is very beneficial.

regarding regulator at the spray gun: I can disregard minimal pressure loss in the 25-ft of 3/8" hose between Sharpe trap/regulator and gun? Would be nice to get rid of the regulator at the gun, it seems to get in the way.



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Rod (NH)

03-13-2008 06:23:06




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-13-2008 05:48:05  
As long as you have a regulator back at your Sharpe unit, no you don't need another one at the gun. What you need at the gun is a pressure gage. You set the Sharpe regulator to get the 21 psig at the gun pressure gage with the trigger pulled (the gun fan adjustment should be wide open). The pressure gage back at the regulator, assuming you have one there, will read higher than the gage at the gun, due to the pressure drop caused by the hose and fittings. The difference may not be minimal. It could be 10 psig or more, depending on several factors. But it doesn't matter what the gage back at the Sharpe regulator indicates. It's the gage at the gun inlet that counts. I leave a gage connected there all the time for convenience as you can see here.

Rod

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CNKS

03-12-2008 18:46:26




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-12-2008 18:15:56  
Basically correct. You will have more questions after you start. If you are painting at 65-75 degrees, I would use a medium reducer -- I don't remember the exact temperature range, but the 20 degree range of the "slow" sounds too wide to me. The 21 psi is set with the trigger pulled. You can set it with the gun empty. 21 pounds at the gun results in 10 psi at the cap, the pressure drops inside the gun, cap pressure is not adjustable. Put a gauge on the gun to account for pressure drop in the line, but set the pressure with the regulator on the wall so that it reads 21 psi at the gun. The longer the line from the compressor to the gun the less water problem you will have. Be sure to use a good water trap. The trap goes at the end of the line, just before the hose for your gun, not at the compressor. Omni MP 170 is not AU, the topcoat is -- you need a supplied air system for the topcoat, AU contains isocyanates. If the surfacer is Omni MP 182, it needs hardener, if MP 181 hardener is not used. The catalyst for the 170 does not contain iso's.

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jr356

03-12-2008 19:07:09




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to CNKS, 03-12-2008 18:46:26  
thanks - I have 50-ft 1/2" hose from compressor to a Sharpe regulator/trap, and 25-ft 3/8" hose from trap to gun. I'll set regulator at gun to 21 PSI with trigger pulled.

I do have hardener for the surfacer. Dealer sold me a 3M activated carbon respirator/filter, says all I need. Looks like I need supplied air?? I believe all 3 paint labels say "Omni AU" but don't have the exact 'part' numbers in front of me now.

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CNKS

03-13-2008 17:37:09




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-12-2008 19:07:09  
I agree with Rod that you don't need a regulator at the gun -- however, many gauges come with regulators. In that case set the gun regulator wide open and adjust with the wall regulator as stated. My reason for doing that is it is too easy to bump the knob on the regulator while painting thus changing the setting. Just open it all the way and make sure it is tight. Or do as Rod says and just use a gauge.

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Rod (NH)

03-12-2008 20:20:21




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to jr356, 03-12-2008 19:07:09  
Hi,

I pretty much agree with CNKS and will add a couple of thoughts. By "retarder" I assume you are referring to reducer. OMNI does have a real "retarder" (MR189) but that should NOT be what you want. I personally would never use the slow (MR187) reducer in the 60's - I don't care what your dealer says. I like to apply fairly heavy coats and using a slow reducer in temps that low would be run-city for me. Here's my own interpretation of the temp ranges for the OMNI reducers and hardeners used with OMNI MTK acrylic urethane topcoat:

MR185 - fast reducer - 60-70F
MR186 - medium reducer - 70-80F
MR187 - slow reducer - 80-90F
MR188 - very slow reducer - 90'sF

MH167 - fast hardener - 60-75F
MH168 - slow hardener - 70-85F
MH169 - very slow hardener - 80-95F

These ranges seem to work best for me. Sometimes I will tend to go to the next slower than indicated above if I am at the high end of a range. For example, if I was at 78F, I might choose the MR187. But that's just me. Others can push it farther above or below. There is really no hard and fast rule. It depends on your own technique to a large extent. The slower products will tend to produce more runs and the faster products will tend to produce more orange peel if you get too far outside the "normal" ranges. I recommend some practice painting on something you don't care about if you haven't used these products before.

I'd not pay any attention to the AU label on the epoxy. I don't know why PPG puts that label on there except to signify that their epoxy is a "urethane class product". It's certainly not a urethane in the sense that the MTK topcoat or the MR182 surfacer are urethanes.

What you "need" for your own respiratory protection when using urethane products can only be decided by you. I'll tell you this - your dealer doesn't know, probably doesn't care and is not the best one to advise you. I'll also tell you this - 3M doesn't make a chemical cartridge that they recommend for use with isocyanates when the actual exposure level is unknown, which is always the case for DIY environments. For such situations they recommend supplied air - period. It's always easy to play fast and loose with someone else's health. Different people have different tolerance levels for exposure to isocyanates and I always recommend supplied air when dealing with isos. That's what I do myself. I learned it the hard way years ago. If I won't do it myself, I simply won't recommend it to others.

Regulator at gun? You really don't need that. Just use a pressure gage at the gun and adjust your upstream Sharpe regulator to give the 21 psi at the gun with the trigger pulled.

Rod

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rustyj

03-28-2008 16:30:31




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 Re: questions before painting begins in reply to Rod (NH), 03-12-2008 20:20:21  
Rod--i agree with your statements about iso's! Back when i was refinishing cars and trucks, and they came out with hardeners for acrylic enamels--they took a long time to warn us of the bad stuff in the hardeners for acrylic enamels! Consequently, after some years of using it, i started having breathing problems. The last place i worked, i had to go outside when one of the guys was spraying primer with a catalyst, in the main part of the shop. After 6 years there, i had to retire. My breathing around any body shop got so bad, i couldn't even go in one! I wheezed like an old steam emgine. The place where i buy my gasoline, is across the street from an auto body shop, and if their exhaust fan is running, with isos in paint being applied--i have to clear the area, i get to wheezing so bad and can't get my breath! So, folks, heed the warnings about Isocyanates! They'll ruin yer health, if ya let them!

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