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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Paint type and HVLP spray guns

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roger440ic

04-13-2008 22:55:55




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Hi, I"m new to tractor painting and will be painting my JD 440 crawler outside. It is a working dozer but I want the paint to hold up and go on without too much fuss, if that's possible. I see that TISCO -TP530 and DuPont -43007 Dulux are listed as the original colors. Which is better? Also, I painted a few cars about 20 years ago with the standard type of spray guns. Are the HVLP guns easier to work with? Thanks, Roger

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jose bagge

04-17-2008 18:11:01




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-13-2008 22:55:55  
As previously posted, I this the DuLux is history but the Centari acrylic Enamel is still available. I used a lot of this several years ago with a hardener called "Wet Look" (white and purple can) rather than the DuPont hardener and it looked great, and was super tough. In addition to the hardener, use the "fish eye" additive as well. If you are spraying outside, wet down the ground first to reduce dust.
Have fun with it- it's gonna look great!

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jose bagge

04-17-2008 18:10:45




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-13-2008 22:55:55  
As previously posted, I this the DuLux is history but the Centari acrylic Enamel is still available. I used a lot of this several years ago with a hardener called "Wet Look" (white and purple can) rather than the DuPont hardener and it looked great, and was super tough. In addition to the hardener, use the "fish eye" additive as well. If you are spraying outside, wet down the ground first to reduce dust.
Have fun with it- it's gonna look great!

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glennster

04-15-2008 10:33:08




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-13-2008 22:55:55  
roger, here is another paint option, its not an automotive paint, but a high quality commercial paint. used for outside steel structures, piping, tankstructures and other industrial applications. easy to apply, holds up pretty good. we used this when i worked in a fabrication shop. any ici dulux paint store handles this product line. cost is about 50-60 dollars a gallon. comes in quite a few colors, cat yellow,all the saftey color lines.

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Rod (NH)

04-14-2008 04:41:48




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-13-2008 22:55:55  
Hi Roger,

DuPont's famous DULUX alkyd enamel is no more. It hasn't been available for years now. It's an old technology for paint chemistry. An equivalent chemistry may be available from DuPont in one of their industrial lines but the availability of that particular color formula would be questionable. The DuPont 43007 is JD Industrial Yellow and is available in several chemistries. The only chemistries for that formula that can be used w/o isocyanate-containing additives are Centari acrylic enamel in DuPont's "premium" automotive lineup or Fast-Dry acrylic enamel and Astron alkyd enamel, both in DuPont's NASON "economy" automotive linup. The Astron is probably the closest thing to the old DULUX. Centari is better, qualitywise, but pricey nowadays. You need to be selective with both Astron and Centari regarding field mix additives if you wish to avoid the health issues with isocyanates - unless you have the proper breathing equipment to use such materials safely. The only one of the three I've used myself is Centari. It's a great acrylic enamel and has been for many years. How much longer it'll be available is questionable due to the nearly complete move to urethane base/clear technology in the automotive refinish industry. I know nothing about the TISCO product except it's probably the same old, inexpensive alkyd chemistry. In sticking with DuPont (any of the three mentioned products) you'll have available detailed technical data sheets that cover the mixing and usage information for the products. Those sheets are available on-line from DuPont and you can review them even before you purchase any product. You are not likely to get such detailed information with the TISCO brand.

As one who is more used to conventional (pre-hvlp) equipment, what I've noticed with hvlp is that you need to get a little closer to the surface and have a slower pass speed. Hvlp just doesn't lay the paint down like I'm used to with older pressure-feed equipment. The first time I used it I thought I was painting in slow motion to get the coverage I was accustomed to. Hvlp equipment is not necessarily easier to use but certainly is easier to clean up afterwards because of the typical gravity feed arrangement. I don't like the paint weight above my gun hand with gravity feed (top heavy) but I guess it's something you get used to.

Rod

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roger440ic

04-14-2008 07:21:52




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to Rod (NH), 04-14-2008 04:41:48  
Rod, thanks for all the info. Since this is a working dozer I'm not concerned about a perfect restoration match in color. Do all three of Dupont products that you mention go on with a single application and is one of them more durable than the others? Roger



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Rod (NH)

04-14-2008 16:16:05




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-14-2008 07:21:52  
I forgot to add that all DuPont products are not likely available from your local DuPont jobber. Jobbers tend to stock only those products most in demand from local autobody shops. Just because DuPont markets a product doesn't mean it is readily available locally. Check with your local DuPont jobber to verify availability.



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Rod (NH)

04-14-2008 16:05:48




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-14-2008 07:21:52  
Tech sheets at the links:

non-iso Centari

non-iso Fast Dry

isoand non-iso Astron
(note: isocyanates contained in the "Kwik-Kure" 483-08 and in the "Gloss-E" 483-13 and 483-14
additives. The non-iso mix is just Astron plus 441-00 reducer as noted)

All three are single stage paints. They do not require a two step (color plus clear) process as do the base/clear systems. I think acrylic enamels are preferable to alkyd enamels since they generally have a little better fade resistance. Durability? Well, none of them are going to match a urethane. And the non-iso mixes (no hardener/catalyst) will take far longer to fully cure and will be less resistant to fuel spills during that time. Of course no paint will stand up to any heavy scratching. Centari is one of the easiest applying paints I have used but I am unable to compare it with the other two in that respect, having never used them. It definitely will be more expensive than the other two. I think if it were mine, I'd go with the NASON Fast-Dry as the most cost effective choice. I know there has been at least one poster here in the past that used it on a tractor and was pleased with it. Maybe someone who has personal experience with it will chime in. I would not be interested myself in the Astron at all, not only because I think it has less fade resistance but because of the unusual requirement for a sealer. That's just another product and application requirement that I don't believe should be necessary if the compatible primers noted on the tech sheet are used. For me, an alkyd-based product doesn't have enough going for it in the first place, and to add a sealer requirement simply makes the choice unacceptable.

No matter what paint you choose for a topcoat, I recommend the use of an epoxy primer over all others. You just can't do any better than that for a primer.

Probably one of the most durable products you could consider would be DuPont's Imron polyurethane - the stuff that's used on trains, planes and fleet vehicles. Big bucks though and loaded with isocyanates. Certainly not for anyone without supplied air breathing equipment. There are other choices in the industrial lines of most manufacturers but I have no experience with those.

BTW, DuPont formula code 43007 is available in the following chemistries/qualities:

third party image

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roger440ic

04-14-2008 18:21:00




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to Rod (NH), 04-14-2008 16:05:48  
Rod, thanks for the wealth of information. I went to a paint supply place today to get a feel for prices. They suggested the same as you just mentioned, that the Imron polyurethane would be the best bet. Cost for a gallon with hardner is $345. The cost for a gallon of the Centari with hardner and reducer is $275. This was the first and only place that I checked for prices, but I was amazed at the costs, I just didn't have a clue. Given that I'll have to paint my dozer outside because that's where its all apart now, is it still recommended to use the supplied air breathing equipment or could I just use a good mask? Could you point me to where these guidlines are discussed? Thanks again, Roger

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Rod (NH)

04-15-2008 09:29:14




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-14-2008 18:21:00  
Centari at $275 a gallon sounds too high - however I know it's pricey for what it is. If you can check out the NASON Fast Dry cost, I think you will find that to be significantly less.

A common hardener for Centari is DuPont 793S. It's an additive that contains isocyanates. Here's what DuPont has to say about repiratory protecton when using it:

"Respiratory protection:
Do not breathe vapors or mists. If this product contains isocyanates or is
used with an isocyanate activator/hardener, wear a positive-pressure,
supplied-air respirator (NIOSH approved TC-19C) while mixing
activator/hardener with paint, during application and until all vapors and
spray mist are exhausted...."

Source MSDS

This is nothing new! DuPont was saying the same thing back in the 80's. People who choose to ignore safety warnings, thinking they are just a CYA thing, do so at their own risk.

One of many links concerning the safe use of isocyanate-containing materials in the painting industry.

There is no respirator manufacturer who recommends their chemical cartridges for use with isocyanates where the breathing zone concentration is unknown - which is always the case with DIY usage. Painting outside can result in far greater breathing zone concentrations than are representative of a professional downdraft paint spray booth. The National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) recommends only suppied air whenever isocyanates are present, regardless of the actual air concentration.

I have been using supplied air during my DIY painting (always outside I might add) for over 25 years. I twice had a bad experience with isocyanate exposure before I wised up enough to properly protect myself. Different people respond differently to such exposure. Some are affected more than others. And it doesn't have to be exposure over long periods of time. Since I refuse to use paint hardeners w/o supplied air myself, even outside, I never recommend such a practice to others. I refuse to play fast and loose with someone else's health. That's why I noted the three potential non-iso solutions for you. The use of iso materials is optional for the DIY. There are alternative choices available, although maybe not as "good" for some. It's a personal decision however, and you'll have to make up your own mind regarding exposure risks after reviewing available information. The issue comes up every once in a while in this forum so do a search on isos or isocyanates to get additional opinions.

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roger440ic

04-15-2008 21:54:33




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to Rod (NH), 04-15-2008 09:29:14  
Rod, I think that you more than answered the safety question, thanks. Another question: Can I paint the whole engine, including the cylinder head with the paints that we've been discussing? When I asked the paint supply person if Imron and Centari could be used on the cylinder head he said that there were high temp paints made for that purpose. I understand that the exhaust manifold would probably get too hot but it seems like a lot of extra work to try and mask off the cylinder head. Roger

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Rod (NH)

04-16-2008 05:42:33




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 Re: Paint type and HVLP spray guns in reply to roger440ic, 04-15-2008 21:54:33  
Don't believe everything the paint guy tells you, even if it's about the paint he sells. Sure, you can paint the entire engine, including the head, with any automotive paint. The only area where it will burn off, if painted, is on the exhaust manifold.



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