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Paint Problem

Solvent Pop Bubbles

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Barry Maxwell

12-04-2001 06:32:22




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Months after completing the restoration of two Massey Harris tractors, I had the emergence of what I am told are solvent "pop" bubbles on the show surfaces of both tractors (hood, fenders, gas tank, etc.). Basically, they are very closely spaced tiny blisters that pop out and give the appearance and feel of sandpaper. In time they subside, but you can still see where they were even though you can't feel them. They seem to emerge during foggy or rainy conditions when there is condensation on the tractor. I primed the surfaces with sandable primer (PPG K36 or DP 90, and spray cans for small parts) and painted with Martin Senour acrylic enamel (with hardener) using a turbine-powered HVLP system. After the paint cured (2-3 weeks), I colored sanded the surfaces and polished them with compound. Can anyone tell me what's going on? What did I do wrong? Are these "solvent pops" causing the paint to lift from the primer or the primer to lift from the metal? Is there any easy way to fix the problem? (I think I know the answer to that one). Since I'm ready to paint the show surfaces on my third restoration, I need to know what I did wrong on the first two and not repeat my mistakes. Thank you for any help you can provide.

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Eric

12-08-2001 23:41:50




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 Re: Paint Problem - Solvent Pop Bubbles in reply to Barry Maxwell, 12-04-2001 06:32:22  
Can you determine if those blisters are happening between the paint and primer or is the primer blistering up together with the paint at the metal?



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Barry Maxwell

12-09-2001 05:13:51




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 Re: Re: Paint Problem - Solvent Pop Bubbles in reply to Eric, 12-08-2001 23:41:50  
Although I'm not sure, I THINK that the primer is lifting from the metal. After reading the responses to my post, as well as reading the archives of this board and others, I THINK my fundamental mistake was applying a lacquer-based spray can primer over my primer-surfacer during the sanding process. I would sand the primer-surfacer and if I needed more fill, I would pick up a spray can rather than mixing more primer and using the gun. I did it to save time and did not realize that there was likely to be a chemistry problem in the primer layers. At least I think that was my main mistake.

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Eric

12-09-2001 07:16:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Paint Problem - Solvent Pop Bubbles in reply to Barry Maxwell, 12-09-2001 05:13:51  
If you notice the warning on many automotive topcoats they commonly state "not suitable over lacquers or lacquer base primers." This is because the resins in lacquers are re-disolvable if subject to the strong or "hot" solvents present in most automotive topcoats. Lacquers were great in their day when entire systems were built around them including primers, top coats and clears. They offered great repairability because of this deficiency they posessed. This is more than likely the problem here. There aren't many choices to correct it but to strip it all and re-paint.

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Jerry B

12-04-2001 14:19:36




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 Re: Paint Problem - Solvent Pop Bubbles in reply to Barry Maxwell, 12-04-2001 06:32:22  
If it is truly solvent pop then it should not come and go. Sounds to me like you have moisture in the paint.

What kind of moisture trap do you have in the system? How often do you drain the water from the pressure tank? How many filters do you have in the air lines? What was the relative humidity during the painting process? And the temp?

Solvent pop usually occurs within a day or so of painting, not weeks later.

I would have color sanded the paint within 2 days of painting in order to help release any trapped solvent rather than waiting for it to "soak" into the underlying layers of materials.

Like Redtractor man said, sandable primer should have a sealer sprayed over it just prior to painting. Forgoing that option, make sure you sure you sand the surface not more than 24 hours prior to sparying and use 240-280 grit paper. Dust it off very well and tack it down completely. Spray a mid-coat adhesion promoter just before the top coats are sprayed. This will help "glue" the paint to the primer.

To determine whether the paint or primer is lifting wait until the pops show up and use a sharp razor blade to prick open the blister. Bare metal tells you the primer is the culprit and visible primer under the removed paint tells the rest.

I would venture a guess and say that the primer is coming loose from the metal. Are you sure you used a good self-etching primer on the metal and old paint prior to the urethane primer coats?

You might also have a materials compatablity problem. Theoretically all "dried" primers should be able to handle all top coats, but we know better than that.

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showcrop

12-04-2001 14:00:51




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 Re: Paint Problem - Solvent Pop Bubbles in reply to Barry Maxwell, 12-04-2001 06:32:22  
barry, it sounds to me like oxidation bubbles due to lack of etching primer.



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Farmer-Gene

12-04-2001 07:29:25




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 Re: Paint Problem - Solvent Pop Bubbles in reply to Barry Maxwell, 12-04-2001 06:32:22  
Go to autobodystore.com and post your question, they should be able to help you.



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Redtractorman

12-04-2001 12:12:06




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 Re: Re: Paint Problem - Solvent Pop Bubbles in reply to Farmer-Gene, 12-04-2001 07:29:25  
When I painted my tractor this year,I asked a friend what to use,and he told me that if you use sandable primer it has to be sealed with acrylic
sealer before paint.My paint turned out nice and has not popped up.



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