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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Still Talkin' Fenders

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Joe Evans

10-31-2003 20:30:56

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Guys: blew off work again early today armed with some Dupont AU, mixing instructions, 70 degree weather, warm paint stowed in the truck cab, and a different attitude.

Roughed up the AE surface with some 320, sqeegeed off, dried, and shot. Lo and behold! I cannot believe what I hath wrought! The most wonderfully rich IHC red fenders I've ever seen and I, Joe Evans, did this! Had to go back to the barn at 9 PM just to look at them again. (Also gave me an excuse to listen to a great HS football game for while). I kid you not, I can almost use the fenders as a shaving mirror. Cannot believe the flowout properties of that paint.

Well, not much is ever perfect in Joe Land. I apparently got a bit zealous in the wet application and didn't consider the warmer temps, warm paint, and the thinner viscosity of the AU kit mix. Yes indeedy, I got two sags on one fender and one sag on the other. Horse manure!
Since it sounds like AU lends itself better to color sanding than AE--at least in the short term--I'll be adoing some spot repair. I'm getting there!

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CNKS

11-01-2003 09:33:56

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Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to Joe Evans, 10-31-2003 20:30:56

Good, I'll send you my Super H hood, and you can do it! AU does flow out very well, if I can just figure out how to get uniform coverage on the curved surfaces. Flat is no problem. Also what is your color code, IH 2150 (96766, 6951 AL) or IH 50 (7410)? If 2150, does it have any kind of an orange tint, believe it was you that mentioned that on the Farmall board. I assume the correct color for the 460 is 2150, never have found the exact year when IH changed colors. PPG 2150 is 71310, definite orange tint, trying to find out if it is correct, or just the way the PPG paint comes out. Seems to be warmer in Ohio than Kansas. Still seems like for the conditions you describe, a medium reducer would be fine, bet you just got the gun too close.

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Joe Evans

11-03-2003 06:04:25

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Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to CNKS, 11-01-2003 09:33:56

Probably shouldn't respond until I'm armed with the correct data (it is at home), but I think the number is 96766, and is definitely a Dupont product. Assume for now 96766 is the correct number. Dad and brother Bill painted the 460 in 1998 using Dupont Centari AE 96766. The code number was recorded in the 460's I&T manual. Dad is plowing ground somewhere with an F-30 alongside St. Peter, so I can't ask him where he came up with the code number. During some of my weekly Sunday morning visits with Dad, I DO recall him jawing a lot about re-painting the 460 and will say that he did his homework to get the correct color. I used that number to match the fenders with rest of the 460. I would say the 96766 in AE is more orange than normal IH (but is ever so slight), and I would say, the 96766 AU is closer to the correct color for some reason. My problem is that I never saw any FACTORY fresh IH paint jobs except when I was a kid. So maybe I'm trying to compare faded paint to new. The existing 460's paint seems to be spot-on as to the hue. I will say the W-9 I just got has a fresh paint job (such as it is), and that paint is a wee darker than what I've just done. As far as what IH paint code to use--50 or 2150--I have no idea, never thought about it, didn't know there was a color change, but now you've to me wonderin'. Will get back to you. If just guessing, I would say the color change occurred with the -60 series tractors as they were a fairly radical change (update?) in IHC machine offerings, and in a lot of cases not for the better.

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CNKS

11-03-2003 09:46:10

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Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to Joe Evans, 11-03-2003 06:04:25

I would agree that you probably have 96766, but I would be interested in knowing for sure. The label on your paint can should say IH 2150, at least that's the way PPG does it--a label gets printed out when they mix the paint, that gives both their's and the IH code. Guy Fay's letter series book says that IH changed the code to from 50 to 2150 "in the late 50's", so I would assume that 2150 is the correct color for your 460, and 50 is correct through the 350/450. That is certainly not etched in stone, as I, like you have not seen an original since I was kid. My PPG 2150 is orange enough that I'm considered putting Allis decals on it.

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Joe Evans

11-03-2003 20:20:28

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to CNKS, 11-03-2003 09:46:10

Some of the darndest things can be found on the net.

The link (don't know how to paste a 'real' link that takes the clicker right there) below is a 3M site. Nowhere does it say to use the Microfinish for the paint surface I now have. Supposed to use Perfect-It FINE CUT stuff. Microfinish is a MEDIUM cut compound. I'll be dipped!

Also saw on a site where a guy used a foam pad chucked into his VS drill motor for polishing compound application. Now that's something I DO have!

Man...I'll bet there's some YT site leerers really gettin' a chuckle out of this. I will nevertheless carry on with this discovery and follow up with a full report. If everything works OK, I'll take on your Super H hood for the honor of doing it. You'll have to deliver it, and when you come, stop by Steel Wheel Ranch in Everett KS. They have some wheel weights out there I need real bad! You can take all these stinking (literally) Asian lady bug wankers with you that seem to have impeccable timing whenever I fire up the paint gun.

http://www.3m.com/us/auto_marine_aero/aad/solutions/ent_hoxy.jhtml

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CNKS

11-04-2003 08:10:13

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to Joe Evans, 11-03-2003 20:20:28

I'm not done yet, because I have ordered a video that tells how to color sand and buff, it will be here any minute now. However, I have learned a lot about the procedure the last week just by reading web sites and email. The 3M web site wants you to use their newest products, because they can sell them for more money. Your microfinish stuff is an older product they still make, and it should work fine. I ordered a Makita 9227C buffer, it comes highly recommended. I'm not saying a drill won't work, as long as you generate heat without burning thru the paint. Use FOAM pads, not wool or not the cheap terry cloth pads you find in places like Walmart. The pads should be matched to the compound, not sure I'm doing that. I did use the buffer on the bottom of my gas tank, something easy to repaint if I screw up, but I didn't (so far). I used 5 steps: 1. machine buff with a heavier cut 3M compound that came with the buffer. 2. Machine buff with the microfinish stuff (I am not at all sure I needed the heavier compound in 1.) 3. Machine buff with a finer cut compound, made by Automagic. (You can get cheaper compounds than 3M in smaller containers, such as Mequiar's -- At this point in time, subject to change without notice, I don't think the brand makes a bit of difference, as long as the cut is correct. 4. Hand rub with some 3M swirl mark remover I already had. 5. Hand rub with 3M hand rub polish. It looks great. As I say I have only done the bottom of my gas tank, but it sure looks good to me. The microfinish stuff seems to leave a hazy finish. It might polish out, but at this time in my brief polishing career, I'm afraid to polish "dry" too much for fear of burning thru the finish. I removed the remainder by rubbing with the softest cloth I could find, urethane scratches very easily. Do NOT use anything with wax in it for several months (I don't know the time), as it will seal the finish and prevent the solvents from evaporating properly. That's it so far, hope to get done today--I make no promises that the above procedure will work for you, but it is a procedure you might consider. I don't think you are going to be satisfied with an all hand rub procedure. I fully agree with Rod and Gene that you can avoid all this nonsense by doing a good job in the first place -- but some of us aren't there yet. The way things are going it would take me a hundred old fenders to perfect my technique, and since I only do about 1 tractor a year, my CRS would result in me forgetting it all. So-- I have the polishing as a backup. Let the other YTmag people chuckle, I notice not many have any suggestions!

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Rusty Jones

11-10-2003 19:08:17

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to CNKS, 11-04-2003 08:10:13

Been enjoying the posts about the modern paints, etc. Didn't know things had changed that much since i retired 7 years ago, from body work! Who ever it is that has trouble painting round fenders, here's the scoop! When painting rounded areas, always keep the paint gun perpendicular to the job! This will necessitate bending the wrist a lot! With practice, it gets easier. When painting flat, straight, or vertical panels, always remember to keep the gun the same distance from the work, this is also accomplished by bending the wrist. Do not spray in an arc. Doing this makes flat, dry spots, and then when you go back to make it glossy, you get too much paint on the job, and cause runs! Go to the local auto body shop and ask for some old fenders, or a hood or trunk lid, and practice on them first. It'll take some of your paint, but you get practice at spraying paint! RJ

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Joe Evans

11-03-2003 19:43:40

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to CNKS, 11-03-2003 09:46:10

Checked the paint code number sent with the can of paint. It is indeed 96766, but there is no matching IH color code--50 or 2150. I'll call my paint man tomorrow to see what 96766 corresponds to. Now that this has been brought to my attention, whenever I tackle re-doing some of the sheetmetal on the W-9, I'll know to use the correct year color.

So... now I'm open for some coaching on how to polish out the areas I had to spot sand thanks to my boneheaded paint sag job. The 3M Imperial Micofinishing Compound I've been trying to use ain't gettin' it! (recall that I've used AU). Is this product supposed to be IT for the final finish? It leaves the surface dull and hazy. Does this need to be followed up with something else? Is this stuff too coarse? Case in point--I had some 3M color restorer/wax I used on the 460. This stuff says it will polish out small scratches and surface imperfections by machine or hand. It has no perceptible 'grit' feel to its texture. The Microfinish feels like a sand box in comparison. On a 3" square test patch on the wheel side of the fenders, the color restorer appeared to lustre up pretty good. Too bad it has wax in it. If this Microfinish is a machine only product, then I need to be steered toward something that works by hand. I looked at polisher/sander prices today, and by golly, I'm just not going to fork out $200 + accessory cost for something that might not work and cause more harm than good in these rookie hands. I do not mind the elbow grease routine if I'm getting some results for the effort. Heck, I'll buy more paint and shoot 'em again (now with even more experience) before I buy a polisher.

I'm getting on the net and explore the 3M product range. May even ask my auto body friend.

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Gene B

11-03-2003 22:46:52

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to Joe Evans, 11-03-2003 19:43:40

Well Joe I do have some good news. If you sagged the paint, that means you are one step closer to reaching painters zen. The trick is too put on the paint to the point where it's close to sagging but not quite for each coat. It takes some practice but if you achieved a great shine with a few sags that means you are close and need to make a few small adjustments to your technique. Try quickening up your passes or turning the flow down just a hair. It sounds like your mix is perfect so stick with it. I wish I could help you with buffing tips but to be honest I never buff anything as it generally time consuming and makes the part have a different look than the rest. If I ran the paint on a hood lets say, I would wet sand with 600 grit after it dried for a few days then re-shoot the hood.
With a little more practice Joe, you will be able to pull off great paint jobs using acrylics that rival or exceed base/clear for smoothness and quality of gloss. The pic below is of a NH 3930 I painted this summer using the excellent new holland factory pack paint, acrylic hardener and fast reducer. This is two days after painting and the gloss holdout is excellent with no buffing needed and will stay that way if cared for.
Just keep practicing and you will reach painters zen! : )

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Joe Evans

11-04-2003 05:23:45

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to Gene B, 11-03-2003 22:46:52

Gene: it appears you have experienced painters' zen many times and zen some.

I know what mean. The instant I got done shooting those fenders and saw the gloss and texture, all I could think about is what my brothers would say once they saw my work.

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Cliff Neubauer

11-03-2003 18:02:41

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to CNKS, 11-03-2003 09:46:10

I have noticed that the PPG 71310 at least in the urethane paints varies in color from a slight orange tint to a very deep dark red depending on how the light hits it. I have also noticed an orange tint to the real 2150 so it might just have to do with that shade of red and the pigments used to make it.

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CNKS

11-03-2003 18:50:01

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Still Talkin' Fenders in reply to Cliff Neubauer, 11-03-2003 18:02:41

Tractor I'm currently painting is under flourescent light with the wheels off so I can't move it, really brings out the orange. If I take a hood or something outside in the sun, it looks better. So I guess the orange tint is ok, seems to vary some from batch to batch.

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