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Metal Prep

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AlmostRetired

12-29-2003 18:42:50




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I'm in the process of scrapping/sanding the sheet metal of my tractor down to bare metal. However, due to the difficulty of the job, and the scarcity of my free time, I’m only about half done. What can I put on the metal to “preserve” it until I’m ready to shoot primer? I’ve looked at a couple of metal conditioner products (PPG). However, some of the parts I need to condition are on the tractor and I can’t move the tractor to a water source to rinse between coats. I also looked at Rust Mort but got the impression that it’s better suited for rusty metal…not relatively clean bare metal. Any suggestions?

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Jake

01-08-2004 09:00:15




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 Re: Metal Prep in reply to AlmostRetired, 12-29-2003 18:42:50  
You will love this site, try the gravy. I have an engine block cooking in the electo also right now, you wont believe it.



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Jake

01-08-2004 09:01:05




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 Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to Jake, 01-08-2004 09:00:15  
Oops, heres the link

http://www.fboerger.com/restoration%20tips.htm



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DOK

12-30-2003 11:00:50




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 Re: Metal Prep in reply to AlmostRetired, 12-29-2003 18:42:50  
You mention a lot of physical activity in removing the old paint/primer. I am in the process of restoring a Moline Jet Star 3. I use aviation stripper. It removes paint extremely fast. I brush it on. In a couple of minutes the paint is blistered and ready to remove with a scraper. Works very nice. Small areas that remain can be removed with a razor blade. Then I prepare the surface with Prep Sol. Finally, I apply an etching primer that may be purchased in spray cans if you do not want to use a gun.

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Jim

01-01-2004 17:00:05




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 Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to DOK, 12-30-2003 11:00:50  
Where would I get the Prep Sol, and the etching Primer in cans?



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AlmostRetired

12-30-2003 13:42:56




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 Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to DOK, 12-30-2003 11:00:50  
DOK, thanks for the comments. I think I saw Aviation Stipper at my paint supplier. Never thought of using it on a tractor because, with a name like Aviation Stripper, it's for planes right? I can see why you would try it on the Moline though...since its a Jet Star 3. ;)



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DOK

12-30-2003 14:45:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to AlmostRetired, 12-30-2003 13:42:56  
Looks like we need a new discussion forum "Tractor Humor." You can get the stripper at auto parts stores. Good Luck.



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Slowpoke

12-30-2003 22:17:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to DOK, 12-30-2003 14:45:41  
And at Wal Mart



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Rod (NH)

12-29-2003 21:31:21




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 Re: Metal Prep in reply to AlmostRetired, 12-29-2003 18:42:50  
Hi Almost,

Bet you'll be glad when you can change your first name :o). You are correct, the PPG phosphoric acid conditioning products (DX579 and DX520) are not really appropriate in your situation (they are not recommended for cast iron either). Rust Mort, also a phosphoric acid based product, is not appropriate either - at least in my opinion. Those products are intended to be topcoated with something right away. In your case, where you have the metal nice and clean, I would use epoxy primer - a single coat. You don't even need to dirty up a spray gun. Since you are talking reasonably small areas, just mix up a small batch and use a Preval sprayer out of a paper cup. I have even used tablespoons as mixing measures and a 2 ounce bathroom paper cup for this. No clean up to speak of either. That will provide excellent protection until you get ready to do more. You don't even have to finish a part - just prime a done area when you want to quit. Don't worry about the time window with the epoxy. When you are ready to final prime and paint, just scuff "sand" with a coarse Scotchbrite pad, reshoot the epoxy with your regular spray gun and proceed with either a surfacer, if needed, or your topcoat.

My current favorite epoxy is PPG OMNI MP170 because of cost. In the past, I have used PPG DP40, the older, leaded, higher-end ($$$) product on clean sheet metal without a topcoat that was always left outside in the rain for ten years without a spec of rust forming. I haven't that kind of experience with the MP170 but suspect it would also be good under such conditions.

third party image Rod

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AlmostRetired

12-30-2003 14:01:30




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 Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to Rod (NH), 12-29-2003 21:31:21  
Rod, thanks for the comments. I'll give that a try. One question though...I still have some pitting and there's still a little rust in the deepest pits. Any suggestion on how to attack those pits in my situation? I guess I could still use a rust convertor (sparingly) and just wipe off with a sponge. I did see a product called Mar-Hyde One Step Rust Converter...don't know if you are familiar with it. After I get the rust out and the primer on, I was thinking of using a little Bondo to fill the pits and then another coat of epoxy primer followed by acrylic enamel...unless someone has a better idea.

On the subject of masks, I happened to call 3M technical support today and they told me I could use their model 07178 mask to guard against Iso's. They said the only issue is that Iso's are odorless and that it's difficult, without a testing procedure in place, to know when to swap cartridges. However, they said that the solvents will penetrate the mask before the Iso's. So, "in practice" I would be covered if I just swapped cartridges at the first moment I smell any solvent through the mask. Just to be safe, I think I will just skip the hardener anyway.

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CNKS

12-31-2003 17:56:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to AlmostRetired, 12-30-2003 14:01:30  
Picklex 20 (do a search) -- prevents rust as long as it is kept dry. Comes in squirt bottle, smooth it with a brush. More of a rust preventative than a converter, I try to remove all visible rust first; it will take care of flash rust. Needs to be scuffed with Scotchbright pads if it has set a while. Then use epoxy over it. Contains zinc and phosphoric acid, does not need to be washed off. $30 a pint from Autobodystore, much less from the manufacturer, a pint will do a whole tractor. Use this if you don't want to apply epoxy as you go. Take your pick.

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CNKS

12-31-2003 17:58:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to CNKS, 12-31-2003 17:56:10  
I intended to put this under the main post, not talking about rust pits -- do as Rod says!



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Rod (NH)

12-30-2003 17:03:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to AlmostRetired, 12-30-2003 14:01:30  
Rust pits are difficult. I sandblast them and I think that is the best way. However, lacking that as an option, I guess I would try the Rust Mort or a similar product. The Rust Mort doesn't have to get a wash rinse like the PPG and DuPont products (if you follow their written instructions from the tech sheets) and is a one-step application (no follow-on second product). I am not a fan of etch primers but that would be another possibility without blasting. I don't think that a product like "Extend", which I like, would be appropriate here because it really should have some significant rust to apply to and not minute bottoms of scattered pits. I have no experience with the Mar-Hyde product.

After primer, yes by all means, go over the pitted areas with a "bondo type" polyester filler. 3M (and others) make a thinner filler that comes in a squeeze tube. You still need to use the activator though. That stuff is almost flowable and if the pits are significant, such a product does a good job. You may need multiple applications. Lacquer spot putty, frowned on in today's high speed competitive world, can also be used successfully if done properly. Sand and prime again. At this point a surfacer is usually used prior to the topcoat. That is a high build, easily sandable "primer". You have to get the surface glass smooth prior to your color as the smallest imperfection will be magnified and show up after the color is applied. A 400 grit sand would be about the coarsest prior to the color. Some would say 600.

Sounds like 3M is quoting from some lab tests. I am aware of some basic lab testing concerning iso removal from cartridges PROVIDED they have the prefilters in place. Of course that also presumes a perfect fit with no leaks, including the exhale valve. In the real world, I find that difficult to obtain on a dependable basis and with facial hair it is simply not possible at all. I would be interested to know if 3M has any independent approvals from NIOSH on it. I almost doubt it. It would be better than nothing at all. There really is no quick cheap fix here and no positive substitute for supplied air. A personal choice however if you are not in the employ of someone else.

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Slowpoke

12-30-2003 01:21:19




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 Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to Rod (NH), 12-29-2003 21:31:21  
Well, Rod, I went to the Preval site and the idea is pretty good. One can use any type or color paint. Better than the premixed spray cans.
And no compressor is needed. But there's no info on the "power supply", where to buy replacements, or their cost. I suspect it's a pressure bottle of some kind, like the bottles used in air guns. Is it something I can buy at a hardware or do I have to order from the seller? And if I only spray a small area, will the power supply loose pressure over a period of weeks or months?

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Rod (NH)

12-30-2003 16:50:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to Slowpoke, 12-30-2003 01:21:19  
Slowpoke, I find the idea great because you can use two part products (and special colors) that you cannot get in rattle cans because of the pot life involved. The "power supply" is nothing more than a can of compressed air (or maybe CO2 or something like that - I would have to check). They should be available at most any auto supply store that also sells paint to the auto refinish trades. That is where I got mine. You don't have to get it at the website. Matter of fact it is a lot cheaper if you don't. I paid $3.92 for the complete sprayer and the refill power supplies, called "power units" were $3.17 each. The only difference is the small glass bottle that you don't need to use, especially for quick small jobs. There is a suction tube that extends from the bottom of the power unit. You can just stick that into an open container such as a small throwaway drinking cup. You have to use both hands that way but cleanup is faster. I have not had any problem with using a power unit for a short period and coming back weeks later and using it some more. I doubt it is anymore prone to pressure leakoff than rattle cans are. When you know you are done with it for a while, spray a small amount of thinner/gun cleaner through it to clean out the suction tube and nozzle, similar to turning a rattle can upside down and spraying until it comes clear.

It has a fairly "soft" spray - at least that is how I would characterize it. Somewhat softer than a typical rattle can. You would not want to use it for large panels nor try and do a whole tractor with it. It is no substitute for a real spray gun. It does have it's place though and is very handy at times.

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Scott

01-23-2004 18:54:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Metal Prep in reply to Rod (NH), 12-30-2003 16:50:47  
Preval stuff is now available @ Home Depot too.



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