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Question for CNKS

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Abe

03-04-2004 16:46:49




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Is JD paint a synthetic enamel?
It is my understanding that it is.
From your most recent post, you say that a synthetic enamel is not the best way to go.
From other posts, I also understand that if JD paint is used, it is advised to use another brand of hardner and reducer. Is JD just not worth using? Should I just go with another brand of paint?




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Abe

03-05-2004 09:13:57




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 Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Abe, 03-04-2004 16:46:49  
Thanks CNKS and Rod for the info.
I wasn't looking to go the cheapest route, but the best route. I know there is way too much work that goes into the prep for a good paint job to skimp on the finish.
I started painting old cars about 40 years ago when good quality REAL lacquer was $17 a gallon and thinner was $1.50 a gallon (delivered by the postman...for no extra charge.) I haven't done much in the last 25 years, so I have lost touch with what is available these days. It's a whole new learning experience. Will most probably call on you again. Thanks

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Rod (NH)

03-05-2004 10:51:32




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 Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Abe, 03-05-2004 09:13:57  
I remember lacquer :o). I did quite a bit of acrylic laquer repair work on my Dad's '57 chevy way back when. Sierra Gold. Lots of coats. Lots of hand rubbing. Ah, the memories! The big changes in today's automotive paints are the cost of materials ($$$$$) and the large use of isocyanates posing significant health hazards - both in the acrylic enamel hardeners and in all the urethanes. Plus the environmental considerations and the widespread use of basecoat/clearcoat systems. Lacquer and synthetic enamel for automotive work are relics of the past. Acrylic enamel is rapidly joining them there.

There is a happy medium in the cost vs. quality consideration. I happen to believe it is met with PPG's OMNI line of cost-effective automotive paints. DuPont has a similar line called NASON but I have never used any of it. Other major paint suppliers have similar lines of products. The high end acrylic enamels (auto pros would say that is an oxymoron) like PPG's Delstar and DuPont's Centari are really great if you can get 'em, but are on the pricey side and are rapidly being replaced by the urethanes in the upper category and the enamels in the lower "economy" lines noted.

Check out the technical data sheets for PPG and DuPont paint products in the links I posted here recently. It will give you an idea of the many different paint products available today and how to go about using them properly.

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Abe

03-05-2004 13:00:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Rod (NH), 03-05-2004 10:51:32  
My first car was a 1930 Model A. Took every nut and bolt off that thing. My dad used to work for the railroad, and after we had finished up the frame and engine, we took the doors out to the shop and sandblasted them with a unit that was used to blast steam locomotives (about an inch and a half opening in the end of that nozzel.) Those doors were as clean as could be...but, you know the rest of that story. I spent months hand sanding the rest of the body and fenders.
Still have that car. The paint still has a nice shine on it.
(Sorry to get off of the tractor subject)

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Rod (NH)

03-04-2004 19:45:44




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 Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Abe, 03-04-2004 16:46:49  
Hi Abe,

What CNKS said. I have no personal experience with JD paint but I firmly believe that paint chemistry is far more important than any particular brand. You will likely find that similar paint chemistries will have similar costs across various brand names. The lower end chemistry will have the lower cost. And also the lower performance. You can't get blood from a rock even if you put a popular brand name on it. I have no idea who manufactures JD paint. Somehow I doubt JD is in the paint business but rather simply markets somebody else's product under their own name; who knows - it could be DuPont Dulux in disguise. I could be wrong. The can label should indicate the basic type of paint chemistry and what additives to properly use with it, along with safety information. If that is not provided, then the manufacturer either does not recommend it or does not market such additives and therefore defers to others regarding use and mixing, together with responsibility for the end result. I am talking specialty reducers and hardeners here and not generic stuff like mineral spirits. I would not have a high level of confidence in such a product...right down there with the enamel you get at your local Wal-Mart for $22/gal or whatever. Should get a rise out of the JD folks with that :o). Seriously though, if you have brand loyalty and insist on "official" paint or possibly can only get the "exact official shade" from the dealer at a high cost markup, then go with the JD paint. I am sure there are others that will tell you about certain reducers and generic hardeners made by others that they have used successfully, along with how to mix it all up. If it is indeed a synthetic, or alkyd enamel it really is an old chemistry that was used on cars 50 years ago. It will still work fine for what it is but it cannot compare, performance-wise with the more modern acrylics and urethanes. My obviously biased opinion.

third party image Rod

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CNKS

03-04-2004 18:12:07




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 Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Abe, 03-04-2004 16:46:49  
I can't specifically tell you whether or not JD paint is synthetic enamel, it should say on the can. I assume that all tractor store (TSC, etc) and tractor dealer paints are synthetic enamel -- I have no proof. As far as hardener, if JD has hardener use that -- at least you know it is compatible. Synthetic enamels are also known as "fleet" paints, which I believe are used because they are cheaper for a company that does, or has someone do it for them, a lot of painting. That does not mean they are more durable, the opposite is probably true. PPG and other major manufacturers used to have a line of synthetic enamels, I believe some of them are still listed. I think you can get JD green or IH red synthetic enamel premixed from PPG, for example. I do not know if it is better than the dealer paint because I have never used either one. Since I favor Farmall, I have heard that the Case-IH 2150 synthetic enamel works well. However, the acrylic paints, enamel and urethane are better paints, and are usually (not always, I suppose), accompanied by a full line of products, such as primers, surfacers, and hardeners, that are compatible with them. If you want a fast paint job, one where you only use primer and topcoat, then use tractor dealer paint. If you intend to spend most of your time cleaning, removing dents, and preparing your tractor prior to painting, don't try to save a few dollars on paint -- use a major line of paint such as PPG or DuPont. Rod, Butch, or some person more knowlegeble than me, bail me out of this, or else set me straight! I only repeat what I have been told (the painting I have been told about has worked so far).

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Chuck Tx

03-05-2004 11:07:09




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 Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to CNKS, 03-04-2004 18:12:07  
Hi CNKS, ROD and others that regurly help us out. I really appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share it. I read one of your earlier posts about IH 2150 and went to check the can that I recently bought to check it out. Dealer parts mgr told me that it was acrylic enamel and that I could use PPG hardner and reducer with it. In fact he had done a bunch of them that way himself. My can calls it acrylic modified enamel. The Farmall H that I am working on is my second attempt. First was a Case VAC which I painted with PPG acrylic enamel and it came out very nice. I haven't noticed any different handling with the 2150 except the lack of precise mixing instructions as you guys mentioned in these posts. I have a lot of small pieces done but not the majority of the volume, and am wondering if I should sand off the 2150 and use PPG over it. I used Omni as a primer which seems to have worked fine. Its a long time between first pieces getting done and color coat sometimes so I used something that would hold out moisture. PPG store guy said that it would work even with IH paint, if I quick sanded and hit it with another coat of Omni before color coat. What do you think?

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Rod (NH)

03-06-2004 16:16:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Chuck Tx, 03-05-2004 11:07:09  
Hi Chuck,

I don't know what an "acrylic modified enamel" is. There seems to be a lot of blurring of the lines between different basic paint chemistries. DuPont and PPG are as guilty as the rest in this too. PPG's Delstar is an acrylic enamel. However, when the Delthane hardener is added to it, PPG refers to it as a "polyurethane acrylic enamel". Similarly when DuPont's Centari (normally an acrylic enamel, even with hardener) is mixed with the right "activator", it is referred to as an "acrylic urethane". Marketing hype? I don't know. I guess only the chemist knows for sure.

My thought for you is NOT to change horses midstream w/o starting over. For one thing, I don't know if you would be making any significant gain in doing so. And you could very well wind up with a poor color match between the two different products, as CNKS indicates. Whether the PPG OMNI MAE w/hardener would be a step up from the IH 2150 w/hardener (sufficiently enough to justify starting over), I don't know. Perhaps not. I believe the full acrylic urethane (PPG OMNI MTK) would be better if you were to make a switch, especially since you only have some small parts completed so far. If you were to go that way, my tendency would be to chemically strip those smaller parts completely rather than sanding, sealing and putting stuff on top. It would be nice to hear from someone who has had the IH 2150 in the sunlight a lot for a few years to see how it resists fading. Red is notorious for that. Less fading and more chemical resistance would be the reasons for making any change.

The epoxy primer is good under just about everything, even from different manufacturers.

third party image Rod

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CNKS

03-05-2004 11:36:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Chuck Tx, 03-05-2004 11:07:09  
I need to read a can of 2150 next time I go to my Case-IH dealer. Someone needs to tell me what acrylic modified enamel is -- the people on the Farmall board seem to like it, like I said I assumed it was synthetic enamel. -- As far as compatibility, I don't know. I have used the 2150 paint in spray cans for some small parts. For rattle can paint it is very good. HOWEVER, I have tried 2150 rattle can over PPG Omni Acrylic urethane, where I had a screw up for whatever reason, and did not want to get out my spray gun. I sanded the Omni first, and it lifts the 2150, so I have to strip it and start over. You are supposed to use a sealer (you can use PPG epoxy for that) over the old paint, but for small parts, its about as easy to start over. So your dealer is right about the need for the sealer. If I were you (its up to you), and you are using PPG products under the 2150, I would use PPG MAE or MTK anyway -- the 2150 is about half the price, but after spending that much time and effort, what's another $40 or so for the PPG paint?

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CNKS

03-05-2004 11:42:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to CNKS, 03-05-2004 11:36:54  
I forgot to add: The PPG Omni 71310, 2150 equivalent, does NOT match the 2150 spray can paint, I assume the quart and gallon cans won't match either. I don't know if that is a PPG characteristic, or if my dealer mixed it wrong, definitely more orange than 2150. The other IH paint is IH 50, for pre 1949 Farmalls, I have not used that as yet, Case-IH does not sell IH 50.



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Chuck Tx

03-06-2004 20:48:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to CNKS, 03-05-2004 11:42:24  
Thanks again Rod and CNKS. Wish that I had gone Omni all the way, but I guess that I'll keep going now. Like you said, Farmall board seems to like 2150, and if it turns out well, I will keep it inside anyway.



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Rod (NH)

03-04-2004 19:54:28




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 Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to CNKS, 03-04-2004 18:12:07  
Have you noticed the forum acting a bit funny lately? I have noticed that clicking on the main subject sometimes opens up all responses just like clicking on the + sign. Also that some responses are recorded at the exact same second in time that the question was posted. Nothing like a fast reply.



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CNKS

03-05-2004 05:26:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to Rod (NH), 03-04-2004 19:54:28  
Haven't noticed that -- my computer actually seems slower on some of the other sites--must depend on the ISP and number of people trying to get to the same place.



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Bob G

03-11-2004 08:40:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for CNKS in reply to CNKS, 03-05-2004 05:26:47  
John Deere and Case-IH paint is made by Valspar. On one of the hod rod boards that I visit they use the Blitz Black to get the flat primered look, so and they said it was Valspar. I talked to the Valspar representative and he confirmed that they make all the tractor and implement paint for JD and IH. You can use Valspar hardener and reducer in it. As far a a acrylic "modified" enamel that means that it is formulated to hand weather better and hold up longer than normal acrylic enamel.

I used some of the Case-IH primer and gloss black to paint the inner fenders and radiator support on my 72 Ford and it went on real good and looks good. I didn't use a hardener though.

Bob

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