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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

rod(nh) or anyone

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Fred Kobs

04-19-2004 17:09:25




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i intend to use permatex #81849 spray-on rust treatmenton the tin work on my 44mh. what should I use over the top to seal it?? I am trying to find a base/clear dupont# for both the red and yellow also. as it will be a long time b4 i get to applying color can i primer over the treated tin and seal later?? or should i bite the bullet and seal now and deal with wet sanding later?? thanks for your input. Fred.

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fred kobs

04-20-2004 22:10:50




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 Re: rod(nh) or anyone in reply to Fred Kobs, 04-19-2004 17:09:25  
hi rod, i didn't think they would co-operate well. Was really hoping tho. guess i'll have to break down and pay someone with a real sandblaster to do my grille. my little one just won't get the deep pitted rust off. i really want to spot paint behind things such as the starter etc. as i reassemble but am worried about peeling after final coat. is there a way(without scuffing) to do this or am i better off risking a few runs trying to get in there at paint day?? i painted a few cars in my teen years with fair results but getting coverage with so much stuff in the way makes me nervous. thanks again. fred

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Rod (NH)

04-22-2004 21:05:35




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 Re: Re: rod(nh) or anyone in reply to fred kobs, 04-20-2004 22:10:50  
Fred, if you really want a decent job you are going to have to remove those items that restrict access to certain areas. For example, you can't do a good job painting behind a starter with the starter in place. I don't think you would be satisfied with the result. If you are painting on top of existing sound paint, you really need to scuff up the surface some for good adhesion. If you have a nice smooth surface to start with, a ScotchBrite pad (fine in this case, under a topcoat) is relatively easy to use and would do the job. But you need to have proper access. Painting a car is a piece of cake compared with a typical tractor.

Rust pits are a PITA to deal with. Sandblasting is the best way to start. You could always try the Extend but whatever you do, if you want a nice smooth, glossy surface, you will need to apply a pourable bondo and or lacquer spot putty, probably in multiple applications to your satisfaction, with lots of sanding in between. A final sand with 400 grit paper or fine ScotchBrite is needed before topcoat. No easy fix here.

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Fred Kobs

04-19-2004 21:28:18




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 Re: rod(nh) or anyone in reply to Fred Kobs, 04-19-2004 17:09:25  
thanks for the info rod. i haven't ever dealt with a rust treatment prod. b4. searched this forum and got your link to loctite. very informative. am still wondering about using bondo. since i'm going to grind properly, should i treat first or do the plastic work and then treat?? thanks. fred.



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Rod (NH)

04-20-2004 15:31:12




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 Re: Re: rod(nh) or anyone in reply to Fred Kobs, 04-19-2004 21:28:18  
Fred, I have never used bondo and Extend together in the same area. However, if I were to, I would always use the Extend first and put the bondo on top of it (after complete dry/cure and scuffing). The Extend has a chemical reaction with rust. It is not intended to be used on rust-free steel surfaces or other non-rusty substrates such as bondo.

If you are going to grind all rust away, I wouldn't use Extend at all. Extend works best when there is a continuous, tightly adhering layer of rust to react with. That's why the instructions say to remove loose rust only, usually with a wire brush.

If you have clean steel (no rust) you can put bondo directly on the steel, after it is ruffed up some by sanding (or grinding). I prefer instead to apply epoxy primer first, scuff it with a ScotchBrite pad and then apply the bondo. A matter of preference.

I want to emphasize that I would only use Extend where there is serious rusting that would be difficult or impractical to completely remove by grinding or sandblasting. Light rusting such as might occur by humidity exposure or being left out in the rain for a few days is better handled with a phosphoric acid treatment and etching process such as DuPont 5717S/5718S; or possibly a combination of sanding and such acid treatment. There are many products out there that claim of "solving" the problems of dealing with rusty surfaces. The best fix is to sandblast to bright metal and epoxy prime immediately. Anything less than that is a compromise. My opinion, of course. Others may wish to describe what works best for them in similar situations.

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Rod (NH)

04-19-2004 20:11:22




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 Re: rod(nh) or anyone in reply to Fred Kobs, 04-19-2004 17:09:25  
Hi Fred,

That's the Extend stuff in rattle can. I have tried the spray-on but much prefer the brush-on/roll-on version. I couldn't seem to get a high enough film build to really do the job with the very fine spray from the can. In any event, it doesn't need to be "sealed" at all. Once it completely reacts with any remaining rust and turns fully black, it can be exposed to the weather. The time to turn black is very dependent on temperature - the higher the temperature, the faster the reaction. I have had a test section of the brush-on Extend on a severely rusted and pitted dump body for over three years now...two coats and nothing on top...outside all the time. No sign of any rust showing through. I have used it (roll-on to minimize brush marks) on a gas tank that I didn't want to sandblast the bottom of because I was afraid of blasting right through some very tender metal on the tank. I topcoated that with epoxy, then a surfacer and finally a topcoat. If you have a uniform coating of the Extend, you probably can forget the epoxy but I think you definitely would need a surfacer on the tin if you want the smoothest, most glossy finish. I used an epoxy because I did not have a uniform base, the bottom of the tank being treated with Extend and the rest of it basically bare or sandblasted.

If you do decide to prime over it, be sure to follow the Extend spec sheet for dry time. It says a minimum of 24 hours. However, if you are below 70 deg F, I would personally wait several days prior to putting anything on top of it. If you use epoxy on top, be aware that after the epoxy time window, the epoxy has to be scuff sanded and usually recoated to get best adhesion of the topcoat. It sounds like you would be in such a situation. No such window exists for any of the surfacers that I am familiar with so if you have a uniform Extend surface and don't need a bare metal primer, you could just leave it or apply a surfacer now and wait until you are ready for the topcoat.

Wet sanding? I don't do any wet sanding. I just prefer doing all mine dry. If you are going to use a surfacer, I would just scuff sand the Extend with a coarse ScotchBrite pad, apply the surfacer and sand (now or later) prior to your topcoat.

I can't help you with a DuPont color number but do have a reference to PPG numbers for Massey Harris red and yellow. Maybe you could cross them over at your DuPont dealer. In any event, I do not trust numbers and crossovers for the old tractor colors. You best bet, once you have a possibility, is to buy a quart (minimum purchase for a shop-mixed paint) to verify the proper shade prior to spending a lot and possibly being disappointed with the result.

third party image Rod

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