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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Rod CNKS?

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D. MAC

05-10-2004 13:38:59




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Damn, if I'd known painting (paints, hardener, etc..) were so expensive, I think I wouldn't of stripped the disc. Chit, I can't believe the prices of paints, hardeners, etc...Whew! I suppose I'll have to bite the bullet and pay those prices, because after all this work of stripping the paint, I hate to use some cheap paint to repaint. And in two years see it start to fall off. I believe what I might do is finish the stripping, and when all of it is done, load it up in my truck, and drive around to several auto painting shops, and get real time quotes. Possibly, when they see the amount of parts (small) they won't mind bidding or painting the parts. It still may be cheaper for me to paint the parts myself. What a project I got myself into!!

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D. MAC

05-10-2004 14:37:07




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 Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. MAC, 05-10-2004 13:38:59  
If I decide to paint the disc myself, I'll be wasting alot of paint, ie spraying the air as well. So, my question: is it possible to brush OMNI primer and paint w/ hardener on the parts? You have to mix and put into the spray gun, so could I mix and then apply with a brush?



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Jerry B

05-11-2004 06:21:16




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 Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. MAC, 05-10-2004 14:37:07  
D.

If you use an HVLP gun you won't spray the air that much. You are only going to use about 20-40 pounds of pressure and therefore air velocity (and the resulting overspray)is greatly reduced.

I suggest a gravity feed gun. They can work with even less air flow than what is recommended. They don't require the high speed air needed for a syphon gun. You can feather it down to a fine line if need be or open it up and let flow.

Rod mentioned using a touch up gun. I have one but I don't use it except on single panels. I prefer the full size gun. Nothing is more aggravating than running out of paint in the middle of a panel or whatever and having to crawl out from under something to fill the gun again. A full size gun gives you much longer work time and less refilling.

Don't think it matters? Try crawling under and tractor to paint the belly and running out of paint. Crawl out, fill gun, crawl under, paint for a few minutes, crawl out, fill gun, crawl under..... ...

But to each his own.

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Rod (NH)

05-10-2004 17:01:47




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 Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. MAC, 05-10-2004 14:37:07  
Hi Dennis,

Well, I'm not an expert either but I do have some experience in automotive type painting over a number of years so I'll throw out my thoughts.

1. I am a little surprised you are painting your disc at all. Judging from the pictures you've posted it looks brand new, including all the warning decals :o).

2. Even "cheap" paint should not fall off if the proper surface preparations are taken (90% of the work, btw). The cheaper paint chemistries still provide decent protection to the metal and for some purposes are entirely adequate for the task. Because of the basic chemistry (not brand) of the cheaper stuff, there is a greater tendency for the colors to fade over time. Red is notorious for such fading; a nice bright red can look more like pink after just a year's time exposed to sunlight. The cheaper paints are also less resistant to chemical attack, particularly solvents such as gasoline. Even the cheap synthetic enamels were used successfully on automobiles in the '50s and '60s so they are up to doing the job of adequately protecting the metal. They are just not as "good", performance wise, as the modern, more expensive auto paints.

3. Automotive paints are not formulated or intended to be applied by brush. They are relatively fast dry and can exacerbate the problem with brush strokes, especially when done this way on large areas. I have used a brush with mixed auto paint for very small areas such as touching up bolt heads and nuts. I have also brushed a short length of logging chain. Where you plan on having your disc broken down into all the relatively small individual pieces, you might make out well with a brush application. For larger areas though, a slow dry synthetic enamel would be a better choice despite the poorer fade/chemical resistance. In any event I would not use a hardener without fresh air breathing equipment. While the exposure is less than spray application, it is still there and should be avoided. Your good health should be the most important consideration.

4. I suggest you review your goals for the disc. Is this going to be a show pony or a working piece of equipment? If it is a working piece of equipment and color matching is not an issue, I would consider saving some money and using an industrial enamel with brush application. I say this because you apparently don't have a spray gun yet coupled with the fact that there are no large visually important areas where an automotive type finish would be appreciated. Rustoleum would be a candidate. Benjamin Moore also makes a decent exterior metal enamel in bright colors, as do others. These paints are relatively inexpensive and are intended for brush application, although they can be sprayed. The so-called tractor paints are also a contender for this particular use. Just follow all the instructions that come on the can label. Personally I shy away from the rattle cans because I think the film build you normally get with 'em doesn't provide as good a protection to the metal as a brush job.

5. If you wish to pursue a spray application on your own, if for no other reason than to gain a little experience, I would recommend a small touch-up gun (also referred to as a spot gun). I say this because your disc parts are not large and you do not need the larger fan pattern plus your compressor per your prior post is of marginal capacity for a full size gun. It can be done with a full size gun but I think you would be happier with the touch-up type. They can be had ranging from about $30 all the way up to about $300. For a first time user on a piecemeal application such as yours, the $30 variety should do the job satisfactorily. If you wish to proceed this way then I would recommend what CNKS has indicated; the MP170 epoxy primer plus the MAE w/o hardener. DuPont's NASON line would also have similar products if that is a more convienient source for you. I have not used a NASON product but have no doubt that it would be comparable with the OMNI, although John down below indicates it would be superior. They are competitive "economy" lines. Get the tech sheets on each product and be aware of the time window on the epoxy - 3 days max for the MP170 to topcoat w/o scuffing and reapplying. NASON's may be different. This way would provide you with a better product at only a modest increase in cost over 4. above. These products can be applied with a standard chemical cartridge mask that is relatively inexpensive compared with fresh air breathing equipment. Therefore you don't have to compromise your health in the process.

third party image Rod

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D. Mac

05-10-2004 21:17:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to Rod (NH), 05-10-2004 17:01:47  
Rod-
Thanks for the advice!! I believe I'll go with number 5.

1. Touch up gun @ $30
2. MP170 Epoxy
3. PPG's OMNI MAE or DuPont's NASON Fast Dry acrylic enamel.

A. If I can find a breathing system to rent? what kind of hardener would you suggest?

B. After chemical stripping (almost done btw), and sandblasting (touch up), should I clean with PPG DX330 or Acryli-Clean? Any idea where I might find either one?

Thanks for the information, and I'll keep you guys updated on my progress.

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Rod (NH)

05-11-2004 08:22:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. Mac, 05-10-2004 21:17:43  
If you do use a hardener it should be the specific hardener recommended by the manufacturer for the exact paint product you are using. They will be different between products. In many cases there will also be different hardeners and different reducers to use for the same product, depending on the temperature at time of application. This will all be spelled out in the tech data sheet for the product. To do any job properly you need to have this tech sheet. For PPG, you can find those here. I don't believe the Fast-Dry is recommended for use with a hardener at all. Again, the tech sheet for it would give that information if appropriate.

The DX330 is Acryli-Clean. It's the same product. You get it at the same place you get the PPG paint. The tech sheet for proper use of that is here.

The different tip sizes are to accommodate materials of widely different viscosities. For example, you generally would use a larger tip size for spraying a heavily bodied material such as a surfacer. I don't believe you will have tip options with a touch-up gun anyway. Use the tip that comes with it for both the epoxy and the topcoat. Or follow the instructions that come with the gun regarding tip size. I do not have different tip sizes for my two touch-up guns. I have found them to be satisfactory for everything but surfacer and in a pinch can even be used for that, albeit slowly and poorly. My full size gun is pressure-fed and I only use one tip size (small) for all products, including surfacer. With such an arrangement, compensation for thicker material can be done with the pot pressure rather than the tip size.

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CNKS

05-11-2004 08:03:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. Mac, 05-10-2004 21:17:43  
I don't know if you can rent breathing systems. Skip the hardener and buy a $35 twin cartridge charcoal mask. DX 330 and Acryil Clean are the same thing. It is a PPG product sold at the same place you buy your paint. I would advise you to wear your mask, put it in a squirt bottle, squirt it on and wipe it off. I prefer to use it until the rags come clean, that will take quite a bit and a lot of time. Costs 20 something a gallon where I buy it, but I tend to get took, you might find it cheaper. Some people don't use anything after sandblasting--I have no opinion on that, except that a sandblasted only surface is not necessarily clean. Again be SURE you get all that stripper out of the nooks and crannies, or your paint will lift.

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D. Mac

05-10-2004 21:47:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. Mac, 05-10-2004 21:17:43  
Question: What is the difference between 1.4mm and 1.7mm set-up? Which set-up would you recommend? Overall, is it better to have a flexibility in the range of set-ups (nozzles)? If so, what is the purpose for having, say a 2.5mm set-up vs 1.4mm??

Thanks.



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Jerry B

05-11-2004 06:04:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. Mac, 05-10-2004 21:47:22  
The number refers to the size of the fluid tip. A 1.4 is designed to spray paint. A 1.7 is for thicker materials like primer. Some painters use it to spray some clears as well as pearls and heavy metallics.

A true dedicated primer gun will have a fluid tip numbering anywhere from 2.0 to 2.4 This will allow the primer to be delivered to the surface faster and greatly speed the application process. You won't need such a gun on small stuff say like a fender, hood or door, but on overall coverage like on large cars, trucks, ect, you can really tell a difference.

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CNKS

05-11-2004 07:50:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to Jerry B, 05-11-2004 06:04:55  
Let's not make this too complicated for him. As to the PPG Omni products, a 1.5 tip will work just fine for MP 170, and MAE or MTK. For a touchup gun I have sprayed MP 170 thru a 1.0 with satisfactory results. I have sprayed MP 182 surfacer with a 1.8 (also with a 1.5 if diluted slightly) anything larger can be used as a fire hose, unless you are spraying on sprayable body filler or something. His disk is relatively small, consisting mostly of maybe 1.5-2" angle iron, and a cheap touchup gun with a tip size of 1.3-1.5, just to be sure, is ok. He doesn't need to paint the actual blades. He will have to refill it several times, but it is surprising how much a touchup gun will do, if the pattern is adjusted to the size of the object, thus most will go on the object. Most Omni products except 182 have a long pot live, he can mix a quart at a time, and use it to refill with no problem. To paint a tractor, no -- but I prefer a touch up gun for anything smaller than a grille or hood. As Rod said, it will better match his air compressor. One other thing that has not been brought up, Mac -- You need a water filter at least 15? feet or more from your compressor, mine is about 70 feet. Otherwise your paint will have water in it. A water trap mounted on your compressor will do no good.

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Jerry B

05-12-2004 06:36:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to CNKS, 05-11-2004 07:50:13  
CNKS

I had to laugh at your reply to me about complicated. I know how he feels. It wasn't too long ago that I felt the same way. I didn't know one tip from another or one type of paint from another and any suggestions made to me only seemed to bring more questions.

As a one time deal I think you are correct about a small touch up gun. He can practice on his disc and if he likes what he can do with it and suddenly realize his has a talent for painting, then he can "graduate" to larger and better equipment.

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CNKS

05-12-2004 07:03:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to Jerry B, 05-12-2004 06:36:40  
I didn't know a spray gun from a brush, still get confused sometimes.



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D. Mac

05-11-2004 08:55:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to CNKS, 05-11-2004 07:50:13  
CNKS,
Water filter 15 feet from my compressor....basically, will I have two hoses? Are most filters quick connects? I've been lookin on sites to buy a gun, and most seem to be 1.4 or 1.7....If I can get by with a 1.4, I believe that is more common, or less expensive. I'm trying to get one with a regulator attached to the gun. Would you suggest a siphon, or gravity feed?



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CNKS

05-11-2004 14:30:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. Mac, 05-11-2004 08:55:41  
I prefer gravity feed. 1.4 is ok for what you are doing. Rod's pressure system is fine, but you don't want one unless you really get into painting--I may get one someday. I think you may be getting into this deeper than you want for a one-shot deal. I don't remember if my water trap came with fittings or not. Mine has a 1/2 inch pipe running to it. To do it right you need some length of hose or pipe running from your compressor to a water filter and regulator mounted on the wall. Attach the gun hose to that. You need a pressure gauge on your gun, it does not need to have an adjustable regulator, but most do. Open the regulator, if any, on the gun, wide open. Adjust to 40-50 lbs at the gauge on the gun (or whatever the gun says) with the regulator on the WALL. This accounts for pressure drop between the wall regulator and the gun. It also prevents you from accidentally moving the regulator on the gun, as it will be tight when wide open. It is also possible to put a water filter on the gun, these are usually used to catch any water the wall regulator misses. I don't know how well they work, as I have never used one. That said, I once painted a JD lawn tractor with a 1 hp compressor, a cheap gun and the water trap on the compressor. It looked ok, but certainly wasn't show quality.

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CNKS

05-10-2004 15:01:29




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 Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. MAC, 05-10-2004 14:37:07  
Seems like Rod answered a similar post a while back, but I don't think hardener was involved. I will let someone who has tried brush-on paint jobs answer. Personally I would not try it, as I would rather spend a fortune on spray cans than use a brush. As to hardener, I might touch up areas without a supplied air system, but I get a reaction to hardener and would not try a large area with a brush because of the length of exposure. There are still fumes, not as much as with a gun, but they are still there. Your reaction (if any) may differ, but the effects of hardener are cumulative. I will go back to one of my earlier posts and say to get a cheap gun, use Omni MP 170 and Omni MAE acrylic enamel without hardener. You do not HAVE to use 170, it just sticks better and gives a better base for the topcoat. Remember, what you have is a disk, not a tractor with shiny sheet metal -- it does not have to be perfect -- Wish Rod or Butch would answer, all you have gotten is me, and I ain't no expert!!

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Butch

05-11-2004 18:43:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to CNKS, 05-10-2004 15:01:29  
Ha CN, You an Rod are as good a 'sperts as a person will get on here. Only thing I have to add is I wouldn't atempt to brush that project unless the MAE works a whole lot different that MTK that I use. I brush a bit of it on bolt heads and such and it just does not brush well, too thin bodied.



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D. Mac

05-10-2004 18:49:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to CNKS, 05-10-2004 15:01:29  
LOL. I appreciate whatever information you can provide. I read the post from Rod about the enamel without hardener. Like you, I believe I'll have to spend the money and get the hardware! Here is the question:

Without Hardener:
MP170 epoxy primer
MAE Enamel

With Hardener: What would be your suggestion?
MP170 Epoxy primer
Paint??

Quetion #2: Where can I get PPG DX330 or Acryli-Clean?

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D. Mac

05-10-2004 18:51:12




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. Mac, 05-10-2004 18:49:17  
Question #3: Approximately how long does it take for the....

Epoxy/Enamel No Hardener take to cure after painting?

Epoxy/Paint/Hardener take to cure after painting?

Thanks.



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CNKS

05-10-2004 20:18:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rod CNKS? in reply to D. Mac, 05-10-2004 18:51:12  
With hardener, Omni MAE (acrylic enamel). No hardener cures fully in a few months, hardened, maybe a couple of days-- for practical purposes, a week for sure, Acrylic urethane, somewhat faster. I don't think you want to spend $500 for a supplied air system.



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