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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Okay, I painted the Disc! or 80% of it!..........

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D. MAC

06-01-2004 15:22:38




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I'll have pics up soon..... .

Question: After spending this past friday, f**king around with my sandblaster!! piece of chit, it took me all day and part of Saturday to finish sandblasting! It wasn't the compressor, but the sand, and clogging of the blaster. Pain in the arse! Okay, I'm done venting! Anyway, I finished Blasting Friday and Saturday, and primed Sunday. Before priming, I wiped down each piece one time. Then I shot primer on the parts. Before shooting the primer, I noticed some surface rust on the disc parts, and some seemed to wipe off when I cleaned the surfaces. But, I shot the primer anyway, because I was tired of F-ing with the parts, and I figured I only sandblasted just yesterday or day before. Anyway, do you think I'll be okay? The primer went on very nicely! Actually, it looked pretty cool with only the primer on it. The parts have also been topcoated, and that seemed to lay nicely as well. I used a 1.4 nozzle, but it did use alot of paint, more than I thought I would. In fact, I have 5 small pieced to left to paint, I'm hoping I don't need to buy more paint.

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CNKS

06-01-2004 18:02:59




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 Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! or 80% of it!....... in reply to D. MAC, 06-01-2004 15:22:38  
Seems I answered one of your posts when you were trying to plan the times you were going to sandblast and paint, etc -- told you that was impossible. If you are talking about rust on the disk blades themselves, you don't need to do anything, first time you use the disk all the paint will disappear, anyway. Your language indicates you are getting frustrated -- happens to all of us. Just take it in stride, it's only a hobby.

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D. MAC

06-02-2004 08:40:51




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 Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! or 80% of it!... in reply to CNKS, 06-01-2004 18:02:59  
CNKS - Actually, I painted the body or tubing of the disc, I'm not going to paint the disc themselves. In fact, I removed the discs from the assembly so I can paint all the pieces with ease. Anyway, by the time I was done sandblasting, I was very frustrated, but I got the majority of it cleaned. Before I primed, I did notice a little surface rust, but didn't scotchbrite or rough. I simply sprayed with a cleaner, and wiped down really good. In fact, I believe dirt as well as some rust came off onto the rag or paper towel. After that, I decided the heck with it, and sprayed the primer! I think that should be sufficient enough? The MP170 primer is some tough stuff!! I was impressed. I was just going to see if it was okay to go ahead and paint it? I know it's to late now, but I think I wiped/cleaned it well enough and then I had to say enough is enough and shoot the primer and paint!

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Dozerboss

06-02-2004 20:25:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! or 80% of it in reply to D. MAC, 06-02-2004 08:40:51  
If your faced with the same problem again, there are products you can treat the metal with to remove the rust-if you plan ahead and have them on hand. Oxi-solv and several others that you rinse off with wax/grease remover. They leave behind a zinc phoshate coating that will prevent rerusting AND help paint stick to bare metal.
Since you used epoxy primer there is a chance the rust will not return as epoxy is waterproof and thats why it is preferred to regular laquer and other primers which allow water to reach the metal as they have pores like your skin.
Going by the book you should have used a self etching primer on the bare metal first to etch it for better adheshion (unless you are using an oxi-solv type rinsh or old fashioned metal etch to treat the metal) Then applied the epoxy and top coats.
Since it is a disc, i wouldn't worry about it as soil is likely to wear the paint off in some places anyway, thats the real world. If its a museum piece and its to be kept outside you can always sand the spot back and remove the rust and feather edge the surrounding paint and touch up that spot. If and how quickly the rust may return depends on the enviroment, humidity levels and exposure to sunlight. Time will tell. Its hard dirty work blasting and repainting at home. You don't have the big chemical tubs to dip, prep and prime your parts in a factory has. Do your best with what you have and add to the board to help others learn a trick or two.

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CNKS

06-03-2004 07:10:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! or 80% o in reply to Dozerboss, 06-02-2004 20:25:33  
There are differing opinions on self-etching primer. IMO since he sandblasted, he doesn't need it. Self-etching primer is usually used on new metal if you don't want to sand. Since the metal was prepared properly before the epoxy, self-eching primer is not needed. So I'm in the no-etch camp, you're not and that's fine. Both methods work. As to the rust, I agree that it is probably not a concern.

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Dozerboss

06-03-2004 14:45:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! or 8 in reply to CNKS, 06-03-2004 07:10:17  
I don't want to be in anyones camp. I like to read the board and learn something if i can or pass on info to others. Years ago metal etch was supposed to remove microscopic particles of rust that blasting and sanding couldn't reach on the theory that if there are any particles of rust, it will eventually return. Perhaps epoxy and self etching primers have proved that theory wrong. At any rate, I don't criticize anyone's ideas. This should be an open forum where people can express their ideas. If not, then there are probably people out there who don't participate for fear of being picked on because they can't spell or labeled as being in one camp or another. When I said by the book, self etch primer is recommended on any bare metal. I don't use it because my metal was etched by the rust remover. You shouldn't feel like people are stepping on your toes if they offer advice to the same question that you do. I hope that's not the case. Whenever I blast rusty metal, there are always pits left that you cannot get the rust out of. I use the chemical on them to do the best job possible, there is also Por 15 rust paint as an alternative. The advice the manufacturers give you may be just to sell a product or because they don't want a bad reputation for their paint peeling off. It's up to the individual to make a decision on information, that's what I use the board for. If you live in New England, you're going to be facing more serious problems with preventing and curing rust than if you live in southern California. So what works for one person may not work for another, and that's what information's all about.

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CNKS

06-03-2004 17:58:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! in reply to Dozerboss, 06-03-2004 14:45:19  
My first sentence was "There are differing opinions on self etching primer". I did not say any of them were wrong. So, I'm not stepping on anyone's toes -- merely stating my opinion like everyone else does, including you. But, I will admit I didn't tell the whole truth. I use a product called Picklex 20 on all bare metal, mostly because I usually don't paint it right away, but partly because of the very thing you mentioned, it is impossible to get all the rust. Picklex 20 will protect the metal, as long as it is not exposed to moisture, and it will take care of the rust that sand blasting and other methods don't remove. It will also convert flash rust, if you have to wash the part for some reason. The combination of Picklex 20 and epoxy primer actually substitutes for etch primer. I have answered many of Mac's questions the past 2 or 3 weeks and did not mention that because he was painting a disk, and for what he was doing it probably wasn't that important.

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Dozerboss

06-03-2004 20:49:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Di in reply to CNKS, 06-03-2004 17:58:57  
OK,
I thought i was stepping on your toes and that was not my intention. Some of these boards have self appointed experts who criticize, others who try to help within the best of their ability. I find i learn most from trial and error, you can pickup alot reading about others mistakes if their willing to post them. He said his blaster kept clogging so he probably didn't screen the sand or was using sand from a pile that was not dry. I like to lay out a 2 to 3 " inch layer on sheets of plywood in the sun to dry before use and use a water trap at the blaster. That's something i learned after the same thing happened to me. I also find screened sand works as well as the expensive prepackaged bags. I agree every product is not necessary for every job. If he's in a low humidity area his paint will last a long time without etch. And it seemed he had put as much effort into the project as he was willing to and finished the main paint in frustration. Your covering the rust/etch problem with a chemical like me. I have never understood how etch primer replaces the rust removing ability of the Picklex 20 and similar products. I have only used it on freshly stripped sheet metal so filler can be applied between primers and waterproofed with epoxy primer. Now's an opportunity to learn. Have you tried Picklex 20 on rusty metal that was wire brushed and not blasted? I have been using up a supply of Oxi-solv and wonder how it compares. Oxi-solv is to be used a minumum of 30 minutes to a maximum of 4 hours. I have had mixed results after an hour of brushing, some places it will take rust right off within minutes, other places it will barely discolor it. Same result if dipped or brushed on, most parts i'm working on are too large for dipping. On blasted metal it works best. At $25 a gallon I like to compare. I have had problems with Oxi-solv drying up before an hour when trying to work a large part, especially the paste type. How would you rate the Picklex 20 for speed of rust removal? About an hour of brushing is all my hand can take at a time. I have found there is a big differance in paint strippers as well--some work better than others.

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CNKS

06-04-2004 06:51:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted th in reply to Dozerboss, 06-03-2004 20:49:18  
I haven't used Oxi-solv so I can't compare them. Thus far all I have done is tractors, where I remove all the rust I can with a combination of wire brushes of various sizes and shapes on an electric drill, and a cup brush on an angle grinder for larger open areas (that thing beats me to death)--or sandpaper. I don't have a big enough compressor to run much of a sand blaster, I do use a small spot blaster on some small parts. I also have a needle scaler I use occasionally. What I am saying is, thus far I haven't tried to "convert" or remove heavy rust chemically, I guess I prefer to remove all I can manually, which is more work. If I was doing an implement that has sat outside for years I would probably get some of the rust off and treat the rest of it. I mostly use Picklex 20 on relatively clean metal, usually to prevent rust before I paint. It comes in squirt bottles, and I spread it with a brush. There are no time limits that I know of, if it sets for a while it needs to be scuffed before painting. I have let it set for 3 or 4 months inside with no visible rust appearing, but I usually give it another coat before painting just to be sure. From reading what you said about Oxi-solv, I don't think there is much similarity between it and Picklex 20, except they both contain phosphoric acid -- you might go to their web site and see what it says about using it as you use oxi-solv, I'm not sure it's designed for heavy rust, but it seems I read something like "remove all loose rust before applying". I like it because I can apply it and just leave it there. The instructions say you don't need to use primer over it, but I always use epoxy, regardless. On dirtier or rustier metal it leaves a white residue. I try to remove most of the residue prior to painting, I prefer to do it that way, but I do not know if it is necessary. I always uses PPG DX 330 wax and grease remover before painting, that helps to remove it also, but I doubt if it needs to be removed at all, just scuffed. Sorry I can't actually answer your question. Most of what I have learned has come from people like you, Butch, Rod(NH) and others on this board, plus others I have corresponded with by email -- I have never talked to a real painter in person!

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Dozerboss

06-04-2004 10:53:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painte in reply to CNKS, 06-04-2004 06:51:04  
Ok, i'll try looking it up on the web, i have heard of it before or something similarly named.
I have enough air to run a small blaster intermittly but its slow and i don't like the mess so i use the wire brush too when ever i can, with the chemical rust remover.

Here's a tip, If you have something to weld there is a weld thru primer you can put on clean metal that will keep it from rusting too, called aluminized bloxide. You can even store coated metal outside. The drawback is it doesn't take paint very well. I use it in areas you can't reach with paint after welding, like the backside of a patch panel or if your welding something on a frame you can actually use this on the front and back then weld. Anywhere 2 pieces of metal overlap. It's better than leaving bare metal on the back of the weld to rust. Then i brush/sand it off on the outside and paint. Its available cheaper in QTs from Eastwood.

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CNKS

06-02-2004 13:37:25




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 Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! or 80% of it in reply to D. MAC, 06-02-2004 08:40:51  
The 72 hour window for topcoating the 170 is here. If you haven't already painted you need to scuff and reapply -- I don't know how strict that window is.



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CNKS

06-02-2004 13:41:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Okay, I painted the Disc! or 80% o in reply to CNKS, 06-02-2004 13:37:25  
Rereading your 1st post, it appears you are done, so ignore the one I just did -- I should always reread everything before I post because of CRS!



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