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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Water thinned tractor paints

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Sheep farmer

09-29-2004 12:07:04




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I was told that some of the big tractor companies are using paint that can be thinned with water. I find this hard to beleive. Can anyone tell me anything about this. Also If this is correct, would it be practical to use on a repaint job?




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Dozerboss

09-30-2004 23:33:24




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to Sheep farmer, 09-29-2004 12:07:04  
I have heard of them too. I believe there are special problems refinishing with these paints and some experience with them would be needed to get good results. Someday we all may have to use them.

I would avoid them, they make me think of the GM clearcoats peeling when they first came out. I don't think they as good a quality as a urethane enamel and that's my opinion only. I think they will need more development and higher quality before they become accepted by refinishers.

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Frank Stalfire

09-29-2004 20:27:29




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to Sheep farmer, 09-29-2004 12:07:04  
The factories or OEM's are under strict regulations to keep air polution down and most have gone to either a waterborne urethane, very high solid solvent borne urethane, water, or powder, or any combination of them. the water borne technology is interesting it is a urethene resin that is seperated from it's catalyst by water, when the water evaporates the product crosslinks and cures, the result is a film with all the qualities of urathane with low VOC's. waterborne urethene technology is availble to the refinish market and since I work for Dupont I can only comment on our product maybe some one else knows of another manufactuer making waterborne urethene available. Dupont's product is only available in the Industrial coating line, the products are, 1.2Hg topcoat and 1.5PR primer

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dumb painter

10-01-2004 20:41:30




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to Frank Stalfire, 09-29-2004 20:27:29  
How does 1.2Hg topcoat compare to say Nason with or without hardner? Also how does it comapre for gloss? Thanks in advance for all the advice, I appreciate it.



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Frank Stalfire

10-01-2004 20:57:18




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to dumb painter, 10-01-2004 20:41:30  
Nason is an economy auto finish that is a modified acrylic resin which means it's basically a catalyzed laquer, Nason is only about 30-40% solids which means not the greatest chip resistance and you need to be sure and have the appropriate film thickness to get UV protection. Imron 1.2 is a urethane resin and the chip resistance and UV protection is excellant ( not to down Nason, it has it's place in the market ) Nason being an auto finish is a better gloss but the difference is like 100% to 80%

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Big Jim

10-01-2004 02:21:07




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to Frank Stalfire, 09-29-2004 20:27:29  
I've read a few articles about waterborne. For the refinish industry, environmental controls are an issue. Water evaporates at a predictable rate, you don't have fast water and slow water but, at the same time, humidity is water so it affects the rate a lot. The waterborne paints are used mainly where tempreture and humidity can be regulated to control the drying time. With solvents, we can compensate for a variety of conditions. I think it will be a while before we see a water paint that will work decently for painting a tractor in a pole barn.

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Frank Stalfire

10-01-2004 05:36:47




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to Big Jim, 10-01-2004 02:21:07  
The waterborne offering did receive a a bad rap when waterborne 2K products were first offered, how ever the technology has come a long way and manufactuers have gone away from waterborne primer and clear and focused on bascoat and single stage, they have gotten to the point where waterborne base is the most user frienly base on the market the problem is it requires special tools and drying equipment so it's not for the DIY. They are also susseptable to dirt and the surface has to be perfectle clean. As far as durability, every automotive manufactuer right now uses waterborne technology in some part of thr finish, mostly the color since that is the bigest offender when it comes to VOC, the automotive finishes today are more durable than ever and occationally you will see a failure of some type, the Gm peelers that everyone remembers was actually a result of UV rays attacking the etch primer and causing a failure at the sealer level, Dodge had an issue when they tried to skimp on clear film thickness' and failure resulted. There is a mandate now that says that all the paint manufactuers wil Have to go to waterborne base coat by 2008, although we all think that in 2007 they will most likely postpone it, we are all working on now though, Dupont does have one now but Dupont does own Herbert chemical which is the parent co. of Spie Hecker and Standox which have an excellent waterborne base and it's a pretty save bet Dupont will utilize that technology.

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bhb

10-03-2004 06:18:53




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-01-2004 05:36:47  
I appreciate your comments, it is very educational. I am interested in your comment about the GM peel. I have a GMC van that has that problem. I have repainted some areas only to see it happen again, I did not take it to bare metal just the primer. Am I right from what I read in your post that it is the primer that causes the problem and not the finish coat? I would like to refinish the van. What primer would you recomend and also finish coat?
Thank you, Bill

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Frank Stalfire

10-03-2004 08:15:54




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to bhb, 10-03-2004 06:18:53  
Hi Bill
These peelers need to be evaluated on a case by case basis, GM and other makers di have primer problems but also had problems with under or over baking. so it isn't fair to say the primer is the issue with your van, what is clear is if you are having paint peeling anywhere it will need to come off, as far as a primer recommendation it depends on, your skill level, your equipment, your enviroment, if you have baking capabilities or not, ect. ect. there are a smany different primers and topcoats as there are colors
Frank

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CNKS

10-01-2004 06:20:29




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-01-2004 05:36:47  
Do you look for the current refinish paints to disappear, leaving us amatures out of luck?



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Frank Stalfire

10-01-2004 19:46:47




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to CNKS, 10-01-2004 06:20:29  
CNKS
I think solovent borne finishes will dissapear from the market for a long time, there is just to much solvent borne business out there to loose or have to convert, what is happening is paints are getting thicker. If you already know this skip it, paint is basically made of solids, the resin, and solvents. The solvent is the bad for the enviroment part, what we are all doing is raising the solid content thus lowering the solvents. lowering the solvents lowers the VOC's and makes the EPA happy, the OEM' car makers are using clears that are up to 80% solids and BMW now uses a powder clear which is 100% solids, we are now seeing the end of Laquer. the main ingriedient is no longer bbeing imported. next will be Acrylic enamels.

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Dozerboss

10-01-2004 17:16:35




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 Re: Water thinned tractor paints in reply to CNKS, 10-01-2004 06:20:29  
Politics will decide that issue. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. There is plenty of money to be made when something is banned. Surely we still remember every car having to retrofit from R-12 to 134A refrigerant and every shop having to buy a reclaimer, new gauge sets, adapters and so on. I would like to see them mandate thicker materials that don't leak instead of the lightweight junk they use today like aluminum condensors and evaporators instead of copper. If protecting the enviroment was the most important issue, a "bullet proof" design standard should have been the priority with refrigerants.

The paint issue is a little differant, but now that we know companies like Dupont are spending money on this stuff, you can bet they will push for it in Washington, to get there investment back and corner the market.

I can't agree that these newer materials are the most durable. I'm sure they are being improved, but while that's happening someone is buying todays version and getting a lower quality finish. Leave a new clear coated car in the sun today and it's clear coat paint will fail dramatically and peel away as opposed to fading like an enamel. Time to go back in my cave now.

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