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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Pressure at gauge at the wall

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Ray A

09-30-2004 18:21:39

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I have a DeVilbiss Model FLG-635 HVLP gun. What should I set the gauge at the wall to spray the top coat (Acrylic Enamel). My gun also has a gauge at the gun. This gun has a No. 3 air cap. Thanks

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CNKS

10-01-2004 06:38:30

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Ray A, 09-30-2004 18:21:39

Sorry about the triple post below, the computer seems over-anxious today.

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Rod (NH)

09-30-2004 22:03:27

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Ray A, 09-30-2004 18:21:39

Hi Ray,

The gage reading back at your wall regulator is not relevant. What matters is the pressure right at the gun inlet with the fan pattern adjustment wide open and the trigger pulled. The correct maximum pressure at the gun inlet for your HVLP gun should be specified in the documentation that came with it or actually stamped or otherwise indicated right on the gun handle. This is a maximum pressure that is specified to comply with the HVLP legal requirement for 10 psig maximum at the air cap. Assuming you are bound by local legal requirements or just wish to comply with HVLP transfer efficiency, you should adhere to the maximum pressure specified by your gun manufacturer. That's what the gun and air cap are designed for. Forget the gage back at your wall regulator. Adjust your wall regulator to get the proper pressure as read on the gage at your gun inlet with the trigger pulled. The gage back at the wall regulator will always read higher but the reading is not important. If you have some additional "regulating" device at your gun inlet, can it and replace it with just a teed-in pressure gage. You don't need a regulator on top of a regulator. There are "fine tuning" methods based on actual atomization results (not pressure readings) but I have never found them to be necessary. I set my HVLP gun to the manufacturer's maximum and go with that. For my non-HVLP gun, I set in the high end of the range recommended by the paint manufacturer.

Rod

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CNKS

10-01-2004 06:36:33

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Rod (NH), 09-30-2004 22:03:27

The advantage of a regulator (lets call it a cutoff for purposes of this discussion) at the gun is that you can decrease the pressure when cleaning (perking I think it's called) the gun while leaving the wall regulator alone. For those that don't know perking forces the paint back into the cup, making cleanup more thorough and faster--you can't perk a conventional gun. The pressure at the gun needs to be reduced to 5-10 psi whn perking, otherwise there is paint all over the place. I agree that you set the regulator wide open when you paint and adjust the regulator on the wall.

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CNKS

10-01-2004 06:32:16

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Rod (NH), 09-30-2004 22:03:27

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CNKS

10-01-2004 06:32:07

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Rod (NH), 09-30-2004 22:03:27

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Rod (NH)

10-01-2004 10:25:40

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to CNKS, 10-01-2004 06:32:07

Agreed. I just don't consider it a significant enough issue to warrant having another adjustment right at the gun. My DeVilbiss gravity spot gun has such an adjustment screw (needle throttle valve) built right into it. That's a third adjustment screw on that gun! No built-in gage and therefore pretty much useless as far as I am concerned. I never use it and leave it wide open at all times (just like the other two :o)), even when perculating it. A personal preference to be sure.

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Frank Stalfire

09-30-2004 20:51:15

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Ray A, 09-30-2004 18:21:39

Hi Ray
Unfortunatly that answer is subjective to a number of variable, compressor output, airline inside diameter ( HVLP needs 3/8 ) length of air hose, size of air fittings ( again 3/8 is recommended ). The short story is, HVLP work on volume of air supplied not presure, so all the fittings and hose need to be large, 3/8, HVLP guns are only HVLP when air cap pressure not line pressure is below 10PSI, you will spray base coat aroung 5-6 PSI and clear at 7-10, you can use the gun above 10psi but it is no longer an HVLP compliant gun at that pressure. You really need a special air cap that has a pressure gauge on it ( called a test cap ) to know where to set the wall gauge to acheive the desired cap pressure. I can tell you this, in my travels training painters in body shops and helping dial in there guns you will probably be between 30-50 at the gauge on the gun, that is a big spread but it is as narrow as I can get, the SATA NR 2000 is about 35 ans the SATA NR 95 is around 50, the Devilbiss GTI is around 45, don't forget you can use the gun at any pressure but you will only get the advantages of HVLP below 10 PSI at the cap, also a myth about HVLP guns is that they give off very little overspray, the truth is when you dial in your gun to spray the smoothest and give the best finish you are usually at the top of that 10psi and get almost as much overspray as a conventional gun, certainly you can use it at lower airpressure but it will give you a noticably amount of orange peel and mettalic basecoats will very difficult to blend. hope that helps.
Frank

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Big Jim

10-01-2004 02:11:02

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 09-30-2004 20:51:15

For the painter, the big advantage to an HVLP is the improved transfer efficency when it is used properly. When you see a cloud of overspray, it is wasted paint that should be on your tractor, not drifting through the air. I"ve been using HVLP for a while now but I have a conventional detail gun I needed to fire up for a little job recently. I was absoutely astounded at how much overspray it generated, probably 3 times what my full sized HVLP guns do. High pressure atomization may give you a slightly finer finish but the cost in materials is large. Also, since HVLP is manditory in so many places, the paint people will be optimizing their newer products for that method.
I don"t like a regulator hanging off my gun ( a Sata Digital is in my dreams!) so I have a 25" 3/8" hose connected directly to my gun and put a regulator at the end of it. With that setup, I find I need about 45 pounds at the regulator to get my 35 at the gun.

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Dozerboss

10-01-2004 18:54:57

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Big Jim, 10-01-2004 02:11:02

I too have noticed quite a lot less overspray. That's with My sharpe gravity feed set for 10 psi at the cap. Compared to the Binks 7 i had, it's nearly half. I guess the myth depends on what size convential gun you are comparing with what size HVLP gun. I agree, paint goes a lot farther with my hvlp gun and the gravity feed has the added advantage of not wasteing any in the bottom of the cup. I don't consider the finish orange peely. On American hot rod, they consider color sanding and buffing as the only true way to totally eliminate orange peel regardless of the gun type. They don't paint things like cast iron found on tractors.

Jim, did you ever finish that motorhome roof? Have you heard or had any experience with a product called eternbond for RV roofs?

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Big Jim

10-02-2004 23:31:46

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Dozerboss, 10-01-2004 18:54:57

I have not completed it but I've done several large portions of it with the white KoolSeal and am happy so far. I kind of rotate around thru different projects on that thing so I don't get totally burned out on 1 part. I put a 2.3 tip on my HF HVLP and can spray the stuff OK. Not real fast but OK. It's better than a brush or roller and puts down a nicer finish. Orange peal you could measure but I think that the nature of the stuff and it is on the roof.

KoolSeal is the only roof coating other than paint I've used.

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Frank Stalfire

10-01-2004 19:36:29

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Dozerboss, 10-01-2004 18:54:57

Ameriacn hot rod, Boyd Cottington uses Dupont finishes exclusivly. Boyd uses V7600S clear which is a low solid fast dry clear not at all recommended for overall paint jobs because the fast flash will cause problems keeping a "wet"edge, the reason he uses a cheap clear is it is very easy to buff and rarley gets outdoor exposure, also when doing smaller jobs it does spray well considering it is mostly solvent. Before Dupont I was a painter in body shops, both collision and restoration for 13 years and had no problem getting clear orange peel flatt enough to match OEM peel. I stand by my phrase and maybe it's my opinion but the SATA NR2000 is an orange peel monster, I own both the digial and non digital, I also have a SATA NR95 which is my absolute favorate gun, again it is subjective to the painter but I do spend many days a week in body shops helping painters with problems and the large droplet size from the NR2000 is a huge problem, mostly with new painters. Also speaking of motorhomes Dupont just got the Fleetwood motor home business as of jan 04 all Fleetwood coachs have Dupont on them, I was fortunate to get to go to the plant in Indiana and help train the staff there.

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Dozerboss

10-01-2004 21:22:35

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-01-2004 19:36:29

Re: Matching OEM orange peel, now i follow your point.

OT. I notice they aren't very safety conscious on the A. hotrod show, they paint primer in shorts and t shirt and in one episode power sand lead filler with no mask and contaminated the inside of the whole shop with it. Very interesting story lines and entertaining show. More Soap opera than a source of info but they get me every week. Why does a guy with Boyd's money always wear Hawaiian shirts?

I don't keep up with RV's but notice they still use aluminum on some models and the higher end stuff is fiberglass which i believe is gelcoated instead of paint. Newmar i believe is painting the stripes and graphics on the gelcoats however, instead of decals. Someone needs to invent a paint that repels mildew for painted RV's.

Dupont's Imron was "the paint" before CC/BC became more popular and easier to spray. I have always wondered why J Gordon's car isn't a show case for Dupont paints. Looks very ordinary--at least on TV. Reminds me of a house paint color chart with the Red, Blue Yellow color scheme.

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Frank Stalfire

10-01-2004 21:40:35

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Dozerboss, 10-01-2004 21:22:35

The amer. hot rod show pains me to watch sometimes, I saw them build a 32 high boy or something like it and when they painted it they said they were using single stage paint and would be buffing it. If i payed them 60-100K to build me a car and they used saingle stage and not clear coat I would have a fit, and if thats not bad enough once you buff single stage you void any warranty. As far as Imron and Gordon, Imron is still the strongest resin we have, just not very user friendly. and gordons car is kind of basic but they must have 20 of those cars and they all have to look the same so they want something basic that is easy to reproduce. they have done a couple of cars in Chromalusion,

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Rod (NH)

10-02-2004 10:47:26

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-01-2004 21:40:35

Same question as CNKS. I am not into color sanding and buffing anymore but did some years ago on Centari single stage with no problem (used with hardener of course). You have to be careful with the buffer on the edges to avoid going though to primer but I would expect a similar problem would exist with the clear, relative to the basecoat, on BC/CC even though it is a harder film. It any event it certainly was doable. I don't recall reading anything about any warranty back then. I probably wouldn't have cared anyway.

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CNKS

10-02-2004 09:57:08

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-01-2004 21:40:35

"Once you buff single stage you void any warranty"--just trying to learn -- Why?--paint too thin?

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Frank Stalfire

10-02-2004 18:50:48

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to CNKS, 10-02-2004 09:57:08

Single stage has UV screeners added to it, clear coat has it as part of the chemistry, in single stage the UV screener floats to the top so if you buff it you eliminate the UV protection and the paint fails under the sun light.

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CNKS

10-02-2004 19:40:43

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-02-2004 18:50:48

Sorry for so many questions, but is your description only for DuPont single stage products, or single stage in general?

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Frank Stalfire

10-02-2004 21:00:42

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to CNKS, 10-02-2004 19:40:43

NO problem on the questions. It is true for all single stages. I guess I need to clear up the warranty issue, a warranty is not really much more than a company saying they will repay you if there is a failure, as a Dupont rep if one of my customers calls me and says he has had a failure and he did colorsand and buff I can decide to credit or pay him to repaint the job and ecentially be giving him a warranty regaurdless of what he did, obviously we don't make a habit of that but the option is mine. So, technicaly there is no warranty if you buff but a local rep can turn that over, also, technically unless you are a professional painter and complete a 3 day course provided by your paint manufactuer there is no warranty offered by any paint company for any paint they sell. Again a local rep can over turn that.

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Seth

10-03-2004 18:20:17

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-02-2004 21:00:42

It seems that I am quickly becoming a professional tractor painter, and would kind of like to be able to take advantage of the paint warranty if needed. You mentioned a three day course offered by dupont. How would I go about enrolling in it and what else can you tell me about them? Thanks

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Frank Stalfire

10-03-2004 20:56:22

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Seth, 10-03-2004 18:20:17

Seth
You can go to performancecoatings.dupont.com you will have to register but it's free and you can go on the site as avisitor while your application is being processed, on the site you will see a tab for training, you have to navigate through and find what is close to you, unfortunatley it is aimed at the collision industry and there are only a couple of training centers across the country, I hope one is in your area. Also if you get into trouble tell your paint suplier and if they wont help you ask them for contact info for there Dupont rep and talk to him, most of the time he will help you out.

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Seth

10-04-2004 15:53:40

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-03-2004 20:56:22

Thanks for the help. My paint dealer is mostly worthless. They are the ones that steered me wrong on the omni MAE w/o hardner. As you may guess, almost all of my experience is with the alkolyd enamel I buy from the respective implement dealer. All the info is greatly appreciated, since I have very little help locally.

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Frank Stalfire

10-04-2004 20:09:34

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Seth, 10-04-2004 15:53:40

Seth
Do you have a fesh air system? If so you should start experimenting with single stage urethanes, the gloss, hardness, ease of use, longevity, and color availabilty is far superior to alkyds. If no fresh air, have you checked out the 3M Papper system?

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Seth

10-04-2004 20:44:41

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-04-2004 20:09:34

No have not had enough call for two component paint to justify a fresh air system. Durability is a major concern, thats why I plan to try the Imron waterbourne paint. I do rarely have need for more of a show tractor paint job. What is the 3M Papper system you reffered to?

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Frank Stalfire

10-05-2004 19:09:03

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Seth, 10-04-2004 20:44:41

Seth
3M has entered the fresh air market witha self contained battery powered fresha ir unit the is economically priced, there is on on ebay now at $99 it is missing the hood but what could that cost?

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Rod (NH)

10-07-2004 15:44:16

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-05-2004 19:09:03

Frank,

I am not convinced the 3M unit should properly be referred to as a "fresh air" unit. As far as I can tell it is a powered air purifying respirator (PAPR). That means it uses ambient air (with the isos in it) and forces that through a filter to the facepiece. I guess it would be better than a standard cartridge mask since, assuming the flow is high enough, the mask is under a positive pressure. Not sure about a hood since they usually require more flow than a mask. But - and it's a big but - one still has to deal with cartridge pre-filters and cartridge units and the issues that go along with decisions on a replacement schedule. There really is no decent substitute for a fresh, supplied-air system in my opinion. Far better to use air that is breathable to begin with than have to rely on filtration devices and their maintenance (or lack thereof) to remove/process the bad stuff. Besides, a decent facepiece will probably run around $200 or more. I think I paid about $180 for my full face mask (mask only) 25 years ago.

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Frank Stalfire

10-07-2004 20:11:21

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Rod (NH), 10-07-2004 15:44:16

Hi Rod
thanks for the info, you are correct in that the 3M unit purifies the ambient air, I must say that after only seeing this forum for a week or two you guys are ten times more safety conscience than the painters in the field, I have about 168 body shops that are in my territory and i would bet only 5% use fresh air, ALL the others use a charcoal disposable half mask. Dupont is a huge saftey nut and we try and push saftey on these guys but the industry has some hang ups about fresh air, mostly price since the average painter will not pay for his own unit and the shop owners are always price conscience. Its great to everyone in this forum worried about saftey.

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Seth

10-06-2004 09:03:29

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-05-2004 19:09:03

Sounds interesting, looks worth looking into further. Has anyone ever used one?

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CNKS

10-03-2004 16:36:00

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Re: Pressure at gauge at the wall in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-02-2004 21:00:42

Thanks for the info, I seldom colorsand, but it's something to keep in mind.

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