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? for Frank Stalfire

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Rod (NH)

10-02-2004 10:34:28

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Frank,

Thanks for contributing to the forum. It's always nice to have a paint company rep on a painting forum. We had a PPG rep swing by about a year ago for a couple of posts but didn't stick around. Not enough "high-enders" here I guess :o). My question has to do with uncatalyzed acrylic enamels. Many that post in this forum (and I suspect also lurk here) are not professional painters with a lot of experience and only wish to put a fresh coat of paint on their working tractor. They may never paint more than one of two tractors. They do not have and are not willing or able to pay $500+ simply for the fresh air breathing equipment needed to use catalyzed paints. The choices for them are somewhat limited and generally consist of the synthetic "tractor" enamels from the tractor stores, the industrial enamels (e.g. Rustoleum) from hardware stores or the economy lines in automotive acylic enamels. As far as I know, these are the choices that should be readily available in most local areas.

The PPG line of automotive paints has Delstar and their economy OMNI MAE acrylics that can be used w/o a hardener. The Delstar seems to be rapidly on it's way "out" - it's no longer available anywhere in my area (can Centari be far behind?). The local jobbers no longer carry the mixing tints for it - basically replaced by the OMNI MAE.

What does DuPont have in their automotive lineup that can fill the bill here? The venerable Centari is still available in my area and is field-mixable as an uncatalyzed 1K paint. There is also the economy NASON FastDry acrylic although I guess it is not really catagorized as an "automotive" paint.

A secondary question concerns the recoatability of the Centari 1K and NASON FastDry. Years ago it was pretty much accepted that automotive acrylics had a sensitive period after initial dry and before full cure (perhaps months later) where an attempt to recoat would result in serious lifting (wrinkling) of the paint film - serious enough to require complete stripping and starting over. The current Centari tech sheet (for the 1K non-iso version) indicates that recoating may be done after 4 hours. I notice that the application solvents for the Centari 1K are different than they were years ago (e.g. 8170S vs the old 8034S) so maybe there is no recoat problem using the newer solvents? The tech sheet for the NASON FastDry indicates recoating after 48 hours. The tech sheet for the PPG OMNI MAE does not address recoatability. I have asked PPG technical service and have been advised that their OMNI MAE (uncatalyzed) is not recoatable without risk of lifting. If DuPont's Centari in 1K and NASON FastDry are, infact, recoatable as stated in their respective tech sheets, it would eliminate one of the downsides of uncatalyzed automotive acrylic enamels - reasonable repairability. Could you confirm this? It would be of interest to the casual painter that wants something better than "tractor paint", doesn't want to risk his health and can't (for whatever reason) spring for fresh air breathing apparatus.

Thanks in advance,
Rod

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Frank Stalfire

10-02-2004 19:40:02

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Rod (NH), 10-02-2004 10:34:28

Hi Rod
Thanks for the welcomeing words, I recently bought a farmall B and was wondering about a grill when I found this forum, I enjoy being able to help when I can and I realize the audience may not always be the professional painter and I am adapting to that and trying not to be to technical with responses when I can. As far as 1K enamels, you have to understand ALL the paint companies focus soley on the collision refinish market, thats were the money is, about 1 billion a year. So there is little money put into the older technologies like enamel. Yes the solvents have changed and we are actually changing a majority of them again right now, we are no longer able to get a raw material resulting in redoing an entire platform of reducers and catalyists. The lifting you mention on recoat was when the finish was in the "gel" phase, you could get on it before or after but not during. A solvent change has changed things, thank fully. As for confirming that recoatability in Centari and Nason is safe, My understanding is that isssue has been resolved and the products are recoatable in the window provided in the tech sheet, I have not personally tested these 2 products. As for other offeringss to guys with working tractors, I really beleive the Dupont Industrial line has a Copolymer water borne line that would be a GREAT fit, it is Non iso, water reducable, low VOC, can be brush, rolled or sprayed, and is hands down more durable and will have alonger life cycle than any auto finish. The problem, VERY thick and requires a pressure pot or pressurized cup gun to apply by spray, is not an auto motive type gloss, is not available in all colors, can be custom mixed if you provide a sample of the color you want, I think the farmer wanting to paint his tractor would have better luck and have a better finish with industrial than a low end auto finish. I know you guys have had no exoposure to industrial, it was only available to the factories up until 4 years ago, but it would be something to check out.

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Adam Paul

10-06-2004 16:47:11

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-02-2004 19:40:02

Welcome Frank, I'm one of those "lurkers" Rod mentioned, and just wanted to say "Welcome and I hope you stay!" At first, I wondered "Who is this masked man?" Well, your posts have been extremely insightful and very helpful; it's great to see you jump right in!!! I post here from time to time on welding, sandblasting and related safety issues... I'm also pretty handy at helping folks out with obscure garden tractors!!! I'm can also mention that the Farmall board is a great board, as I've been over there lately learning about "M"'s for my wife.
Anyway, welcome again,
Adam

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Frank Stalfire

10-06-2004 19:34:36

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Adam Paul, 10-06-2004 16:47:11

Thank you Adam, I enjoy being able to help it is a big part of my day job, sometimes the politics of working for a big company get in the way and this is nice forum to participate in, ofcourse with Dupont tatooed on my butt you'll catch me through in a shameless plug here and there. While I have your ear I'd like to ask you about blasting, do you use the vibratory cleaning units, and if so what about a rock tumbler with different media? Frank

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Adam Paul

10-07-2004 14:01:54

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-06-2004 19:34:36

Frank, great to hear back from you! I personally don't have experience with that type of blasting, but I'm waiting to hear back from a friend of mine who I believe does... One another note, I can totally relate to the "politics" of the corporate world!!! Myself, I'm ready to just walk out!!! I too enjoy helping people, but for me, the corporate world is just not a good fit anymore... I'm looking at starting my own business, whatever it might be... One thing�s for sure when you break it down this way: Business is easy, all you need to do is look at the competition, see what they are doing, and do it better.
Well, that's what I'll start off with!!!
Adam

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Frank Stalfire

10-07-2004 19:57:37

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Adam Paul, 10-07-2004 14:01:54

Adam
thanks for checking on the blasting, so are you done in corperate america or looking to get out? what kind of business are you looking at? If I can possible help just let me know and good luck.
Frank

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Adam Paul

10-07-2004 21:30:24

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-07-2004 19:57:37

Frank, Thanks for the kind wishes. In a nutshell, I'm really ready to be my own boss. I'm in corporate America at present, wearing the "golden handcuffs" Great bene's, OK pay, and good job security...
However, they have me work any hour they like (television engineer, 24/7), pay me a lot less than I'm worth, (by about 20k) and it's up to them to determine my future... It's not up to me...
I feel qualified to do independent technical service (with a progressive history in the business) to running an iron works (grew up in one as the owners son...) even thought of opening up a small lunch shop! At the rate things are going, things should be getting exciting for me soon (I hope). Like I mentioned, I�m really ready to just get up and walk.
I spoke with my friend for you and it turns out he does rock polishing; and does so by hand...
Thanks again,
Adam

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john in la

10-03-2004 19:16:04

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-02-2004 19:40:02

Hello Frank;
I would like to welcome you to or board also.

I am one of those one time tractor painters just looking to protect my tractor from rusting away. I know very little about painting and have learned all I do know from these fine people on this board.

While it is a little late for me on this trip I would have been very interested in this Imron waterborne paint.

My standards going into this job was since it is very labor intensive I wanted the best paint I could afford for lasting qualities. If I got a good shine well that was a plus. I went to PPG and Dupont to see what I could use. The problem I kept running into was ISO's.
The PPG dealer pushed their industrial line as they said it was much thicker and would last in a tractor situation. The Dupont dealer had a line that was basically the same thing. While it could be used w/ or w/o hardener the problem is it still used a ISO hardener. While I do not have the quote from Dupont any more to see the exact line here is the spec sheets for the PPG product. W/O hardener and W/ Hardener

With the info I had and the fact that if I wanted a lasting job I had to use a ISO hardener I called in all favors and was able to borrow a fresh air system for this job. This allowed me to move up to the PPG Omni MTK acrylic urethane.

I think the main problem is their is so much out there and we know nothing. A dealer looks at us as a one time $250. sale or to put it into other words a waste of time and a big pain in the a$$. To much labor trying to explain all the options for this small of a sale.

So the only down fall to this paint I can see is the pressure gun and my back woods mind set that says waterborne paint are for houses.
It looks to have a compatible epoxy primer. (Corlar)
So how good is this Corlar for protecting against rust as compared with the auto Epoxy primers?
What is this 1.2HG-C that can go over the 1.2HG to provide a better gloss and better protection?
Can the HG-C be used with out the HG?
I would assume since you brought up this paint you do not have a thinner one that could be sprayed with a suction gun.

Thanks for the education you are providing us with.

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Frank Stalfire

10-03-2004 20:29:27

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to john in la, 10-03-2004 19:16:04

Hi John
Thank you for welcoming me and I am begining to understand your guys needs, I think, if I go off on a tangent and get crazy with the tech talk let me know. As for the Imron Copolymer ( we call it the Copolymer line not the waterborne line, sounds better ) anyway, when it comes to industrial paint and I mean real industrial not hoem depto or lowes paint, industrial, durability wise, is ten times better than any auto paint out there, concider where these coatings will be and the liability for the paint companies producing them, ex. a company bought ten train cars and the manufactuer of the paint they used told them what products worked well in rail. all ten cars had paint failures, it costs almost 2 million to paint them and they sued the paint company for 81 million. So with the stakes so high the products are the bets out there, they have to be. They do lack the automotive shine and "flatness" but in the durabilty field there is no comparison. The Imron HG-C is a clearcoat. And sorry there is not a less viscus version of the copolymer, the only ones that can be sprayed from gravity or suction gun is the solvent line, Imron 3.5HG, or Tufcote3.5

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Aberdale Farm

10-15-2004 12:37:54

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-03-2004 20:29:27

This has been a great discussion and I have learned more about coatings in these last few threads than I ever knew. I have a question concerning the copolymer coatings. Would it be possible to color sand after drying, and then applying a solvent based clearcoat to achieve leveling and gloss levels? Would there be a concern for adhesion between the copolymer and the clear coat?

Sorry if this is a dumb question, and thanks Frank, CNKS, and Rod, for all of the technical info. for us novice wannabes!

Dale

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Frank Stalfire

10-16-2004 18:28:56

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Aberdale Farm, 10-15-2004 12:37:54

Hi Dale
No, you are not able to color sand Imron copolymer, the Industrial finishes stay some what soft when compared to automotive finishes, besides that you can get them to lay down pretty flat, of course equipment is the key.
Frank

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Aberdale Farm

10-15-2004 12:35:16

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-03-2004 20:29:27

Sorry if this is a dumb question, and thanks Frank, CNKS, and Rod, for all of the technical info. for us novice wannabes!

Dale

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Rod (NH)

10-03-2004 07:50:22

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-02-2004 19:40:02

That's good. As long as they can be recoated as indicated, either would be be a better choice for a non-iso paint than the PPG OMNI MAE because of that. If you get some runs, just wait a few days, sand out the runs, scuff the area, mask off as necessary and re-shoot without concern for lifting. The Centari may not be available in the typical tractor colors anymore (it isn't in my AC Persian Orange - DuPont 655) but the NASON is, at least in that orange. For those interested, the tech sheet for the Centari 1K is here. The tech sheet for the NASON FastDry is here. Sure is a high conventional gun pressure for the FastDry! For those that are also interested and want to pursue the industrial IMRON Waterborne that you mentioned below, the tech sheet for that is here.

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Frank Stalfire

10-03-2004 20:49:49

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Rod (NH), 10-03-2004 07:50:22

Hi Rod
Thanks for the tech sheets, I did just want to comment on the color issue. Please don't be discouraged if the jobber says a color isn't available anymore, thats not always the case. For anyone not familiar with how colors are developed, at the color development labs there is a wall full of shelves with at least 100 different colors on it, the color tech looks at a sample and starts pouring differnt colors together till they acheive the desired color and as they do this they weigh each color they add and it all gets doucumented and is recorded as a formula, the jobber has a similar set of toners or colors and gets these formulas and is able to reproduce the labs formula. What happens is we constantly delete and replace toners and all the formulas containing that toner have to be redone, there is an order of priority, late model auto, then fleet, then older auto, and so on, when they get to equipment and tractors they may just choose not to reformulate it and wait for someone to request the color. so when you go to your paint store for a color and they tell you it's not available anymore you can request a formula to be made, first though the store should a book called a Spectramaster, which is a book of generic colors if you can match one of those chips to your application that color can now be the standard for your tractor, if it does not match we have a camera that will take picture of the color and generate a formula, if that does not produce your color then you can give the store a sample of your color for them to send to the color lab ans the lab will make a formula for your sample. So, when they tell you the color is not available tell them your smarter then that and tell them to use there resources.

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Seth

10-03-2004 17:55:45

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Rod (NH), 10-03-2004 07:50:22

Here my plug for dupont paint. I used Omni MAE once with out harder. I will never use it again. Besides not covering as good as say paint from my IH dealer, the recoat period was a major pain(did not unstand that before I started). I plan to shortly try the industrial IMRON Waterborne paint. I am glad to hear that it is thick. I like thick paint, at least it covers.

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Frank Stalfire

10-03-2004 20:35:06

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Re: ? for Frank Stalfire in reply to Seth, 10-03-2004 17:55:45

Hi Seth
Sorry to here you had a horror story. Unfortunatly the low end lines tend to be low in solids which is the resin and pigment and are mostly solvent which is cheap so they can sell an inexpensive paint, also it depends on the color, when we took the lead out of paint years ago it killed the coverage ability of those colors, white, red, orange. Good luck with future trials of DIC (Dupont industrial coatings )

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