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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Hardened paint over non-hardened?

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lonestarjeff

10-26-2004 19:26:57

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I am restoring my old Ford 8N tractor & I am a novice on auto-paint technology.

Can I spray a hardened enamel over the same brand non-hardened(2-weeks cured)enamel & will it make the overall job any better?

I"ve just started reading this forum over the last couple of weeks, but I get the impression there are strong differences of opinion on everything from brand of paint to quality vs. cost. Even the advantages of adding hardener seems to be less than certain w/ some members.

If you read this Frank from Dupont, I"m very interested in your comments about the "cross-bonding" of the paint molecules when hardener is added, did I get that right? Does this cross-bonding happen w/ any properly mixed paint(alkyd or acrylic)?

Lastly, did I understand that the cheapest way to go(alkyd enamel?)w/o hardener is approximately the quality level of the paints that were used in the 40"s & 50"s on tractors?

Jeff

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Frank Stalfire

10-28-2004 20:57:55

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Re: Hardened paint over non-hardened? in reply to lonestarjeff, 10-26-2004 19:26:57

Hi Jeff
Sorry to take so log to respond I was out of town all week. You are correct that Hardener will cause the paint to crosslink regaurdless of the resin base, unless you talk about Melamene resin which the OEM auto makers use, it crosslinks naturally without hardener but it needs a temp of 280 degrees for a good amount of time to do that. If I can help you understand how it makes paint better, if you use NO hardener you have a paint film made of individual moleculs that lay on the surface and by nature of solvent evaporation it, for lack of a better term, dryes. If you add hardener now the moleculs link together and become One continuous film and this crosslinking happens at such a small partical size that the film is also impermiable, Thus a new solvent sprayed over it does not penitrait and cause problems. As for respraying uncatalyzed paint, it has everything to do with the solvents and how agressive they are, if thay are agressive and you respray with a heavy first cota you will have wet solvent laying on the surface which wiil start to penitrate and most likly cause problems. If you respray with a paint with not so agressive solvent or you spray the first coat not so wet you wont have those solvent there to give you problems, some guys spray wetter than others and tend to have more problems thats why you will see a debate on who has problems and who doesn't, if you dont spray wet on the first coat and use good paint with quality solvents things "should" be OK, I use should loosly because Alkyds are unstable and as soon as I say that someone will say they did all that and still had problems. hope this helps.

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lonestarjeff

10-29-2004 07:52:25

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Re: Hardened paint over non-hardened? in reply to Frank Stalfire, 10-28-2004 20:57:55

Frank:
Your explanation is very clear & makes good sense to me. Having said that, it does bring another question to mind about primers. I have primed w/ a rattle-can primer(alkyd), is your description above reguarding "aggressive" vs. "non-aggressive" topcoat solvents going to present the same risks to my prime-coat?

Jeff

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CNKS

10-27-2004 14:27:01

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Re: Hardened paint over non-hardened? in reply to lonestarjeff, 10-26-2004 19:26:57

Hardener requires the use of a supplied air system. If you are unwilling to purchase one (they aren't cheap) then use unhardened paint. It takes unhardened paint several months to cure as it cures by the evaporation of solvents. Hardened paint cures in a day or two. If you use hardened paint over unhardened, the unhardened paint is likely to lift the hardened paint and you will have a mess. I have never tried that, and don't intend to, it is not worth the risk. Alkyd enamel is about the same as used on old cars and tractors. It fades rapidly. It is probably ok if your tractor is inside most of the time and you wax it occasionally. Acrylic urethane (must have hardener) is much better paint, but acrylic enamel hardened or unhardened is better than alkyd. Hardened paint may chip a little easier than unhardened, but I don't think the difference is significant enough not to use it, as long as you have a supplied air system. I always mix exactly as the manufacturer says and have no desire to experiment with ratios, etc. Thus far it has worked like it is supposed to.

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Big Jim

10-26-2004 23:29:47

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Re: Hardened paint over non-hardened? in reply to lonestarjeff, 10-26-2004 19:26:57

Gloss and hardness will always be better with hardner. The paint will be more resistant to damage but, when damage happens, it is more likely to chip rather than dent or scrape. It is really a judgement call based on what kind of a final result you want.
I"ll wait for Frank to weigh in for the authorative answer but I think 2 weeks is bad. I think its best to recoat soon or wait 30 days until it"s fully cured.

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lonestarjeffj

10-27-2004 00:02:44

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Re: Hardened paint over non-hardened? in reply to Big Jim, 10-26-2004 23:29:47

Thanks for the response, I've been reading from the archives & I see your point about spraying 2nd coat while it's tacky or wait 'til FULLY cured.

Jeff

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old

10-26-2004 21:30:06

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Re: Hardened paint over non-hardened? in reply to lonestarjeff, 10-26-2004 19:26:57

Well I have noticed that with hardner paint chips easy but on the other hand it make it more durable to some hits. I also just started doing paint this year and have done 2 this summer and have 2 or 3 more to do. I have found that if you use only about half of what the can says to use it works better

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old

10-26-2004 21:29:32

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Re: Hardened paint over non-hardened? in reply to lonestarjeff, 10-26-2004 19:26:57

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