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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Frank Stalfire

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CNKS

02-19-2005 14:33:50




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You are a Dupont rep, I've been using PPG, the answer to this question, in principle, should be the same. The paint is too orange, far as I'm concerned. IH 2150 red is PPG 71310 or Dupont 96766. You emailed me a while back and said 96766 has no orange in it--96766 has red oxide, 3 different reds and a binder; 71310 has has a red, a violet, an orange, a black, an accelerator, and a "mixing C", which I assume is the binder? My supplier never gets it anyway near the same twice in a row. Someone on the Farmall board mentioned "spray-out cards" to verify the color. I am paint mixing ignorant (among other things). How can I be sure I am getting the correct color from my supplier? I understand that the measuring devices are very sensitive, which should allow a good color match. Also the 71310 looks fine as it goes on, and shortly afterwards. I am probably nuts, but a couple of hours later it has developed an orange tint. My wife says "looks red to me". But to me it looks almost as orange as Rod(NH)'s Allis. I would appreciate any explanation you might have, including one that includes my eyesight.

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dumb painter

02-21-2005 19:28:07




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to CNKS, 02-19-2005 14:33:50  
You could save your self some grief and money go to your local CIH dealer and buy a gallon of 2150 for $40. Then you will not have to worry about any orange tint, and the color will be right. The new 2150 acrylic formula has no orange tint what so ever. The old leaded formula could have a slight orange tint in certain lights.



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CNKS

02-21-2005 20:01:10




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to dumb painter, 02-21-2005 19:28:07  
I appreciate knowing the IH 2150 has no orange. As to grief, although I have heard the IH version is good paint, those who have used both IH and PPG or DuPont say they are far superior. Some have gone so far as to say the IH version isn't much better than TSC paint. As to the extra money for the better paint, twice the price, or more, means nothing compared to the rest of the money I spend on the tractor. PPG Omni with hardener is close to $100/gal, over $200-250 with the accompanying primers and reducers. Besides, I like every part of the process, primers, hardeners, surfacers, reducers, etc to come from the same manufacturer, and compatibility assured by the manufacturers tech sheets. The PPG and DuPont systems are virtually foolproof. Also, I have no assurance that the 2150 is "correct" either, since every new version has some modification, including the acrylic Case-IH 2150, so in reality it is no more correct than anything else. I prefer urethane, CIH 2150 is enamel. Takes me months to disassemble, fix what's broke, remove 99% or the old paint, etc. Thus I will buy quality, and not have to worry about cheap paint, provided I can get the stuff mixed right. I have heard of orange batches of 2150, also.

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Frank Stalfire

02-20-2005 07:02:37




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to CNKS, 02-19-2005 14:33:50  
HI CNKS
Sorry to hear about about the mix problems, I guess to start I should give you details about the mix process. ( I apoligize if you already know this stuff ), all the different paint qualities have a unique set of toners to make that qaulity, such as Imron, Cenari, ect. A color tech gets a panel of a specific color and using the disired quality, they make that color from scratch and document what it took to get the color, all toners are measured by weight not volume. THat list of toners and weight of toner are documented and become the formula, When you go to the paint store and ask for a color, the counter guy looks up the color in his database and gets the formula, below is an example of # 7410 in Centari quality
Toner weigth in grams for a quart mix
758S 45.3
706S 4.0
700s 17.5
733S 78.0
715S 680.3
756S 78.0
The counter guy gets a can and puts it on a digital scale and will add the first toner (758S) up to the weight 45.3 and then move to the next and so on, with all the variables a number of things can go wrong, the scale could need calibration, the toner may not be stired for a long enough time before pouring, he could over pour any or all toners which is what happens most of the time. So as you can see many things can go wrong, the best advise I can give is for you to either get a large amount and keep feeding off that, or keep the old can and lid and when you go back for more give them the can and explain you got some before and need them to be on their best behavior when mixing the new stuff, and here is the old can with the color you can use to match. That kind of lets them know you are holding them to a standard, whether they care is a another story, I know they all have big signs in the stores that say no returns ar guarunties on color match but they can be held to matching a previous mix. As for the color going orange after it drys, that may be your eyesight, reds will get darker whan they dry so I'm not sure what your seeing. Also the sprayout cards are good if you need to exactly match something, you get a flat peice of scrap and spray it with the color you have and compare it to you job and you can see the color before you paint. Hope this helps and sorry it's long
Frank

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CNKS

02-20-2005 09:17:09




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to Frank Stalfire, 02-20-2005 07:02:37  
Thanks, you told me, in part, what I already know, as I have worked in a laboratory envionment, and digital scales (better term is balances) are a common item. I always used a set of weights to make sure they were calibrated. I hate to tell people who should know how to do things what they should be doing, but I think they are messing up. The problem is I have no exact color, or old paint that is correct, for them to match. Anyway, their toners should be correct, if they mix them properly. The red I am referring to does not get darker, it gets lighter after a couple of hours, perhaps it is my eyes, but I don't think so. I understand the mixing process, what I don't understand is why PPG 71310 has orange toner in it (which, I believe is my problem), and DuPont 96766, which theoretically is the "same" color has none.

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Rod (NH)

02-20-2005 11:54:14




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to CNKS, 02-20-2005 09:17:09  
CN,

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the actual names of the mixing tints. I personally don't think they are an accurate measure of the final color shade. Plus, it also depends on the relative quantities of each. As Frank says, the mixing tints are somewhat unique to different products, even for the same color formula. For example, here's the listing of the names of the mixing tints for three DuPont chemistries, all are for the formula 96766 that is called "Red":

Centari Acrylic Enamel:
758S DRIER 706A BLACK 716A RED/ROUGE 733A RED ORANGE 701A WHITE 715A RED/ROUGE

ChromaOne SS Urethane:
884J LS RED OXIDE 850J BRILLIANT RED 886J OPAQUE RED 869J CABERNET RED 7020G BINDER

NASON FulThane SS Urethane:
430-18 ORANGE 430-56 RED VIOLET
430-17 YELLOW 430-04 WHITE 435-91 URETHANE BINDER

I am not sure why the above for Centari does not agree with Frank's listing or what his reference to #7410 is - he just may have used it as a random sample. There are also two other "alternates" in Centari for the same formula above, each with slightly different mixing tints and/or quantities used. The above comes from DuPont's on-line color formulas. I don't have access to PPG's on-line formulas so I can't compare their tint names. The cross reference info I have indicates DuPont 96766 crosses to PPG 71310 and that DuPont 7410 crosses to PPG 71969. Complicated ain't it!

It's my conclusion that you simply cannot get an accurate idea of subtle shade differences by looking at the common names of the tints that make up the final product. The only thing that really counts is a final sprayout, keeping all variables as close to constant as possible. The closest DuPont match that I have seen to the early AC persian orange that I use is DuPont formula YS074. It's a generic color called Spectramaster Yellow but I would never refer to it as a yellow. I would certainly call it an orange though.

I don't have any explanation why yours might change shade after drying. I can't say I have ever experienced anything like that that was obvious at the time. I do know that in different lighting situations color shades can appear differently. And digital cameras can sometimes confuse shades of color. In some lighting, a digital photo of my AC can show yellowish-orange and reddish-orange in the same picture due solely to the way light strikes different areas of the picture. It's something I don't see with my eyes - at least not to such a dramatic extent.

If you have any other jobbers for the 71310 OMNI in your area, I would try a small quantity from a second source. You may just have a supplier that is too casual in his or her mixing practices. There was an interesting discussion recently on one of the auto-painting forums about the large numbers of painters that either love or hate OMNI. There were even suggestions that some jobbers might be intentionally less than accurate in mixing the "value" paint line for some economic reason. I'm not making that charge because I don't have any personal basis for it. However, I am aware of quite a few who say that OMNI is the worst piece of crap ever, even on this forum. I don't believe that because I have had excellent luck with it. It seems to be love or hate with nothing in between. I know some of the reasons for hate can be attributed to not following instructions but I also know that you are not in that category. You might also consider getting a small quantity of the 71310 in a higher grade product such as Concept Urethane (Deltron Acrylic Urethane SS), if it's available in that, and trying a sprayout for comparison purposes.

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CNKS

02-20-2005 16:52:58




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to Rod (NH), 02-20-2005 11:54:14  
The names may not mean a lot, since any manufacturer can call anything whatever they want to. However, I assume that if there is an "orange" or "red", or whatever in the mixture, that the orange or red is actually some shade of that color. The info in the email Frank sent me some time ago, was for "Chromapremier BC" a variant of the Chromaone you have listed above, as the toner names are the identical. Frank says those are not orange shade reds. However, note that the Centari and Nason colors you list do have some "orange" in them, it appears if the DuPont people mess those 96766 colors up, they could be orange too. Actually I do not know how much of an orange tint any of these IH 2150 equivalent colors should have because around here I have nothing to compare them with. All I know is there is more than a reasonable (in my opinion) amount of difference between batches. Nearest other supplier is 50 miles away, if there. I believe that the CIH version of IH 2150 can have a slight orange tint to it, but not as much as the last tractor I painted. I would call the other one satisfactory, unfortunately I tossed what little paint I had remaining from that one, wish I had it back. As to the difference in 96766 and the 7410 you mention, 96766 is for post 1949 tractors, 7410 for earlier tractors, as IH changed the color in about mid-1949. Info I have says 7410 crosses to PPG 70019, not 71969, I'll have to check that out, as I currently have one pre 1949 tractor. I do have one other question: PPG puts the toner names and grams used on the back of the label -- don't remember if it was you are Frank that told me that. Are the grams what the guy mixing the paint was suppose to use, or, are they what he actually did use? Put another way, since I have not paid any attention to the mixing rack, is the scale connected to the rack and are the amounts used recorded and printed out or is it a free standing scale independent of the rest of the rack? I want to get this figured out before I do any more painting, which will probably be 2-3 months from now.

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Rod (NH)

02-20-2005 20:27:48




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to CNKS, 02-20-2005 16:52:58  
Interesting. I looked at the DuPont list that Frank sent me - I think you have a copy of the same thing. I compared that with the DuPont-to-PPG cross that I have. Here's the result:

IH2150 - 96766 or PPG71310.....96766>PPG71310
IH50 - 7410 or 24440..... ..... ..... ..7410>PPG71969
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ....24440>PPG71956
IHC Red - 27146 or PPG70019..27146>PPG71961

I also looked up the three DuPont formulas for IH50 and IHC Red in FulThane SS Urethane. I cannot post the full formulas with quantities w/o DuPont's written permission. They seem to consider it confidential information. It will, however, give you an idea of the ingredients in the different formula numbers in the same chemistry:

Nason FulThane (DuPont 7410) - "Red"
430-25 BRIGHT RED 430-45 CLEAN MAGENTA 430-08 RED OXIDE 430-04 WHITE 430-02 CARBON BLACK 435-91 URETHANE BINDER

Nason FulThane (DuPont 24440) - "Harvester Red"
430-18 ORANGE 430-10 MAGENTA 430-56 RED VIOLET 430-25 BRIGHT RED 430-03 H.S. WHITE 430-02 CARBON BLACK 435-91 URETHANE BINDER

Nason FulThane (DuPont 27146) - "Harvester Red"
430-25 BRIGHT RED 430-22 PERRINDO RED 430-04 WHITE 430-02 CARBON BLACK 435-91 URETHANE BINDER

These three cannot be the same shade. Or can they? Confusion city. Go figure.

PPG doesn't put ingredients and weights on labels where I get my paint. The sticker that the jobber puts on here is a small one he prints out that indicates the formula number, the listed application and common name of the color, along with the end user color designation, if any. No mixing tints or weights.

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Rod (NH)

02-20-2005 21:14:04




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 Update in reply to Rod (NH), 02-20-2005 20:27:48  
I just noticed that the PPG "Tractor Color List" that I have indicates IH50 is 70019, although it has "Lt" before it. More confusion. It would be nice to see comparative sprayouts of all of 'em. Unfortunately, I guess you don't have an original sample to go from so couldn't tell which one is the closest to the real thing, even if you had the sprayouts.



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CNKS

02-21-2005 06:54:36




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 Re: Update in reply to Rod (NH), 02-20-2005 21:14:04  
Frank sent me that list, also, I have not fully digested it yet, as I hate to switch brands, since I like the way Omni works, nothing at all against DuPont, I simply have not used it. I don't paint enough to be able to make comparisons, I suppose I should get a pint of PPG and a pint of DuPont, see which I like, and make absolutely sure the next batch is mixed the same way under penalty of death or something (not really). It is my opinion, based on what I have read, and what others have told me that the "correct" IH 50 (light red) is PPG 70019/DuPont 7410, and that the IH 2150 (darker red) for later tractors is PPG 71310/DuPont 96766. To confuse the issue further 2150 did not replace 50, a similar color called 1102b did, and there was another color that I have seen in print only one time, I don't remember it. 2150 did not appear until the late 50's and was used I believe into the 80's or perhaps around the time that Tenneco aquired IH and merged it with Case. I have never heard of anyone having 1102b mixed, I haven't read Frank's info that close, I probably should. Biggest problem I have is getting the supplier to mix the paint right, and it now appears that there are so many variables that it may never happen, at least with my current dealer. I do get the grams printed out on the back of the label, I wish I had the other can back that I tossed a year or so ago. Thanks, I'm going to sort thru all your's and Frank's data before I buy any more paint, and try to make an approximately correct decision.

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Frank Stalfire

02-21-2005 07:58:24




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 Re: Update in reply to CNKS, 02-21-2005 06:54:36  
Just a quick foolow up, there is NO standard IHC red standard which everyone goes by, the color lab puts out a color and later someone will call them and say they have a tractor that is lighter or darker or redder or yellower or whatever and the lab will make an alternate color then someone else will call with a tractor they say is even differnet and so on, so you can see how so many variations of the same color you will see, you do need to spray them out if you are very critical of the one you want, it does seem that the IHC # 7410 seems to match what most people have,

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CNKS

02-21-2005 13:34:24




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 Re: Update in reply to Frank Stalfire, 02-21-2005 07:58:24  
Except that 7410 is supposedly for pre-1949 tractors, as is your B. The one I'm working on now is a 1958, which should be 96766, or whatever the last person who mixed it said it was, I guess. I always thought that somewhere back in time, someone (DuPont or PPG or both) matched the color from the factory IH 50 and 2150, that was the "correct" color, and should not be modified -- I guess not. If it's left up to people like me, who confuse red and orange, you could have a thousand colors. I thought that suppliers or body shops only modified the formula when they were trying to exactly match a replacement fender to an existing door on a car or something. If they painted the whole car, they mixed according to the factory code on the car, and then would get no complaints unless they really messed up. Can I go to my friendly Case IH dealer, get a quart of 2150, which in theory is the correct paint, spray it out, have PPG, DuPont, or whoever match it as close as they can -- then can them or I keep that formula and get it duplicated the next time??

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Frank Stalfire

02-21-2005 19:48:10




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 Re: Update in reply to CNKS, 02-21-2005 13:34:24  
The automotive world of color is different fom the antique tractor world for sure, the OEM car makers give a pysical spray out of new colors and the paint manufactuers are responsible for duplicating those colors, the antique tractor world has no colors from the OEM's like IHC so people from Dupont or who ever would literally go to tractor shows and match the colors they found on tractors, they would of course look for tractors with original paint or what was thought to be original, but if you go to a show in PA or Iowa you would probably find different variation of colors, so they would collect as much info as possible and offer an average color thought to match most things in the field, then if someone came to the manufactuer and had a shade it would be created and offered as an alternate. If you have a color you feel is correct and can not find a formula that matches you can have your local jobber match it with either the Spectramaster or equivilent, use a color camera, or if you can provide a sample they can send it to the color lab and they will make a formula, you then can ask for the formula for future mixes. keep in mind if a toner is deleted or added the mix will have to be redone. I hope I'm helping and not confusing you.It's easyer to see the process then to explain the process.

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CNKS

02-22-2005 05:34:58




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 Re: Update in reply to Frank Stalfire, 02-21-2005 19:48:10  
I may sound confused, I'm really not, just asking questions for clarification -- the problem is I do not have access to either the correct color, or one that I believe to be acceptable -- which is why I keep asking questions. I believe you clarified the process with the "going to tractor shows and matching the color" thing. The closest I can now come to the "correct color" is getting some IH 2150 from the dealer and having it matched in acrylic urethane by PPG or DuPont -- but with the changes that CIH's supplier made when they changed to their "acrylic" formula, it probably is not "correct" either. So it appears that it is anyones guess, and that there is nothing scientific about it. It also appears that "correct" is nothing more than someones opinion, even if they do try to get it right.

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Frank Stalfire

02-20-2005 19:12:58




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 Re: Frank Stalfire in reply to CNKS, 02-20-2005 16:52:58  
HI C
I guess I could only add that if a person gives you a panel that is red and says to make a formula from scratch you may find one person that can get that color with no orange and another who uses the orange, plus each unique toner will have a cast in 2 directions and the combinations of the toners are what make the formulas unique, and Chroma preimier, chroma base , chroma one all use the same tints just different binders to make the specific quality. also colr can change over the course of years as the toners change with slight manufactuing variances and when toners are deleated and new ones introduced colors need to be reformulated and slight changes can be seen, the best tool to get a hold of is a Spectramaster color chip book and find a color that mathces your tractor, the Spectramaster is kept in good color standard since the entire Dupont line uses it for color refernece. also if your jobber has a camera which is a requirment for jobbers to have, as for mixing there are many variants to the computer, a stand alone computer that you pri nt off a label and lay it next to your scale and read off as you mix, a scale connected to the computer that monitors the pour of each toner and tells the mixer when they have overpoured and will recalculte the mix to compenste, and a scale hooked to the computer and a device you load the toner into that the computer dispenses so all pours are exact, a jobber can have any of these they want and are not required to have a specific one.

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