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Phospheric acid

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Dale

02-19-2002 16:39:57




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I used some Bill Hirsch rust stop on sandblasted
parts and after rinsing off with water a light film of rust appeared as soon as it was dry. That doesn't seem right. What am I doing wrong?
Thanks




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franz

02-20-2002 20:41:00




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 Re: phospheric acid in reply to Dale, 02-19-2002 16:39:57  
BASIC RUST CHEMISTRY 1.01
Rust = Iron Oxide
Rust + Phosphoric acid (2-5%) concentration in water + time = Iron Phosphate
When you apply phosphoric acid to bare steel, the acid etches the steel. When you dry the steel, you will have surphace rust form.
Apply more Phosphoric acid, and the rust will become Iron Phosphate.
Iron phosphate is a GOOD thing. Iron Phosphate is an impervious coating, and an excellent primer, because it is chemicly bonded to the underlying steel.
Scuff the Iron Phosphate with SkotchBrite to acheive a smooth surphace. Paint directly over the Iron Phosphate coating with enamel. This coating will last longer than enamel on primed steel.

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Dale

02-21-2002 10:04:06




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 Re: Re: phospheric acid in reply to franz, 02-20-2002 20:41:00  
I really appreciate the info. I applied the acid again and did not wash the residue off with water and a stiff brush like last time and things look like they should. Thanks again
Dale



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Geoffrey

02-20-2002 19:16:46




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 Re: phospheric acid in reply to Dale, 02-19-2002 16:39:57  
Dale,

If you have the parts in raw metal I would sand them to level the pitting of the sand blasting first. Then you can use a self-etching primer or an epoxy. The activator in the self-etching primer is phospheric acid. If you use epoxy primer on some you do not put etching primer down first.



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Geoffrey

02-20-2002 19:14:38




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 Re: phospheric acid in reply to Dale, 02-19-2002 16:39:57  
Dale,

If you have the parts in raw metal I would sand them to level the pitting of the sand blasting first. Then you can use a self-etching primer or an epoxy. The activator in the self-etching primer is phospheric acid. If you use epoxy primer on some you do not put etching primer down first.



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terry

02-20-2002 16:50:29




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 Re: phospheric acid in reply to Dale, 02-19-2002 16:39:57  
first off i would never put water on bare metal even if i did treat it with a so called metal treatment.ive painted a hundred trucks through fords recall program and most metal conditioners kill rust and put a fine primer that seemes to stay gooey.your best bet is to condition the metal clean the panel appropiatly,hopefully not with water but if thats what the manufactorer suggests then so be it.next i would remove all flash rust like with sand paper,if you wipe the panel down with a solvent this will help with future flash rusting and then i would prime the panel with a etching primer.you can even buy etching primer in an arosall can at your local automotive paint store.

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Jerry S

02-20-2002 10:03:25




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 Re: phospheric acid in reply to Dale, 02-19-2002 16:39:57  
Phosphoric acid treatment to a metal does lots of interesting stuff and depending on the metal makeup it will vary. We use it in the meat plants to passivate new stainless equipment so to close the pores of the metal and help remove carbon in the surface which makes cleanup easier and prevents rusting more. If we have an old cast iron grinder and use phosphoric acid on it, once the nickel plating is worn through, you will never get that rust problem to stop unless you wipe it down with oil right after cleanup. In fact, if you oil it while it is wet, the rust will form where the water remains. I am not really sure how phosphoric acid would convert the rust. I thought there was a different acid that would be used to convert the rust. I always thought phosphoric acid would just remove rust.

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Rod (NH)

02-20-2002 08:09:17




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 Re: phospheric acid in reply to Dale, 02-19-2002 16:39:57  
Hi Dale,

I have never used the product that you mention. I can, however, explain my own experience with phosphoric acid-based metal treatments for steel from both DuPont and PPG. Both of these treatments are two step systems. DuPont’s first step is with 5717S, "Metal Conditioner" and second step is with 5718S, "Conversion Coating". PPG’s first step is with DX579, "Metal Cleaner" and second step is with DX520, "Metal Conditioner". I believe it is basically the same stuff from either company. Both companies state that the second step is necessary. I have experienced the light flash rusting (in spotty areas) immediately after the water wash following the first step...as you mention. The second step though, even after the final rinsing, turns that light rusting into a whitish cast that is said to be zinc phosphate. Priming of the surface should take place immediately after drying.

I doubt you did anything wrong. Just make sure that there is not a second step somewhere in the fine print on the label that you may have overlooked. I can link you to the technical data sheets from DuPont or PPG that cover this process if you wish.

Rod

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