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Painting Help - Rod, Frank, CNKS, anyone?

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Ken07

03-15-2005 07:39:59




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I have spent hours going over the old posts and still not sure - hopefully you guys can cover one more time. I want to piant my Oliver 55 and be smart and safe, I have sprayed "hobby" type stuff in the past never automtive finishes. I have learned from this site and all you helpful folks Fresh air mask #1 - which I will have, and I think I want to use a paint with a hardener for shine and durability. It"s not a corvette and it"s not a "real" work tractor it"s more of a project for my young sons and I to enjoy and take pride in and show off. I want it to look great. What should I use from start to finish? I can easily get to a NAPA or PPG Omni jobber. I"d like for someone to start with what I should be using to cover the old paint and metal all the way to finish. I don"t want to go to the paint store sounding like a complete idiot. Thanks again for all your help and the service you ahve done for the folks on this board.

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Rod (NH)

03-15-2005 09:52:16




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 Re: Painting Help - Rod, Frank, CNKS, anyone? in reply to Ken07, 03-15-2005 07:39:59  
Hi Ken,

If you have a fresh air respirator, then by all means use a hardener in an enamel or use a urethane paint. The durability and chemical resistance (think gasoline spills) is much better with such paints. Plus the possibility of quick repairs of any errors (yes, they do occur, even with the best of painters) make the use of hardened paint worthwhile - but only if you can use such materials safely - with a fresh air respirator.

There are many different possibilities for equally good paint choices and "systems". I say systems because I think it best you select one such system from a single manufacturer and stay within the products of that system for all components - e.g primers, surfacers, hardeners, reducers and topcoats. Unless price is no object, there usually has to be some compromise in the issue of price vs quality/performance. Everyone has their own idea of where that compromise occurs. Mine happens to be with an "economy" or "value" line of an automotive paint for use on overalls such as tractors. I happen to use PPG's OMNI line in acrylic urethane because I have used PPG products for quite a while and have been satisfied with them. They are also readily available locally. That is not to say that other similar lines such as DuPont's NASON or NAPA's Martin Senour "value" line equivalent is inferior. I just haven't used them. They are competitors and I have no doubt that they are of similar cost and quality to the OMNI.

My personal preference for a primer is a two part epoxy, such as PPG OMNI MP170. For a surfacer on sheetmetal it would be OMNI MP182. For the topcoat it would be OMNI MTK acrylic urethane. Other manufacturers provide similar products. Note that the MP182 and the MTK are urethane products that require an isocyanate additive (hardener/activator/catalyst, whatever). The additive is what makes a fresh air respirator necessary. The additive for the epoxy does not contain isocyanates and therefore a chemical cartridge respirator is satisfactory for that product. If you are interested, check out the on-line Manufacturer's Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for all ingredients of any paint mix for the proper respiratory protection. Any thing that contains "diisocyanate" or anything similar is a dead giveaway for the need of fresh air protection. This info is readily available from all the key auto paint companies.

I would use the epoxy primer over everything - bare metal as well as any old paint, provided all have been cleaned and properly sanded. I would use the surfacer on the sheet metal to fill any sandscratches left over from sanding. On sheetmetal a final sand of the surfacer with 220 then 400 grit. Then a final cleaning wipe with a specialized cleaner such as PPG's DX330. For the sheetmetal do a quick swipe with a special tack cloth to catch any remaining dust particles and then spray the topcoat.

Get technical data sheets for all the products you are going to use well before any purchase and study them as to compatible products and usage. Do not rely on the salesman's word of mouth. Talk is cheap. The best and most reliable usage information is in writing from the manufacturer. These data sheets are available on-line from all the large automotive paint companies so they are readily available. Don't worry about sounding like a complete idiot. If you study the tech sheets beforehand you likely will be more knowledgeable about the products than the salesman is. Be in a position to tell him exactly what you want to buy - not necessarily what he might be offering to sell you. Of the three jobbers I can purchase paint from, only one of the three "salesmen" do I trust to give me good information and advice. Same goes for safety measures. That's not a good track record. Be forewarned.

I assume in all this that you are not thinking of any metallic type of finish or trying to match a panel repair on a fairly new automobile. The situation there would be quite different.

One suggestion. Once you have settled in on a line of materials, do a little practice painting (using all of 'em) on some junk sheetmetal before tackling the tractor. It will be time well spent. I always do a sample sprayout when I use a different paint product. I don't like surprises and it's a great confidence builder.

third party image Rod

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KCSUPERMMAN

03-17-2005 20:47:07




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 Re: Painting Help - Rod, Frank, CNKS, anyone? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-15-2005 09:52:16  
Rod, I enjoy reading your comments and appreciate the information you give:
You wrote:
I would use the epoxy primer over everything - bare metal as well as any old paint,(is this the PPG OMNI MP170, that you referred to previously?) provided all have been cleaned and properly sanded. I would use the surfacer on the sheet metal to fill any sandscratches left over from sanding. (You are referring to OMNI MP182, Right?) On sheetmetal (What about the rest of the tractor, you wouldn稚 use it on it too?) a final sand of the surfacer with 220 then 400 grit. Then a final cleaning wipe with a specialized cleaner such as PPG"s DX330. For the sheetmetal do a quick swipe with a special tack cloth to catch any remaining dust particles and then spray the topcoat. I知 about ready to paint my Super M and I知 doing research as to which primer / paint to use.
Thanks
Ken

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Rod (NH)

03-18-2005 09:27:16




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 Re: Painting Help - Rod, Frank, CNKS, anyone? in reply to KCSUPERMMAN, 03-17-2005 20:47:07  
Hi Ken,

Yes, the PPG OMNI MP170 is the same epoxy primer I have referred to previously. Yes, for a surfacer I was referring to the OMNI MP182 - but only because Ken had indicated that he had (or was going to get) a fresh air mask. Lacking fresh air breathing equipment, I would have suggested MP181 for a surfacer which does not require an isocyanate-containing additive. I would not bother with using a surfacer on the cast. Surfacers are for filling minor imperfections like relatively small sandscratches. They sand very easily. In fact they really ought to be sanded prior to topcoating. The epoxy is referred to as a non-sanding primer. It can be sanded but not as easily as a surfacer. It does not need to be sanded before direct topcoating, if done within the required time window (3 days for MP170 - different for others). You would generally not attempt to make the cast surfaces as smooth as the sheetmetal. In that respect the use of a surfacer would not be necessary. Indeed, it would simply be a waste of time and money, IMO. What little cast work I have done has been to blast clean or wire brush, epoxy prime and topcoat. No sanding and no surfacer. That's for complete removal of any existing paint on the cast. If you are going to paint over mostly existing paint on the cast, I would scuff up well with a Scotch-Brite pad (after cleaning), shoot a coat of epoxy over all the cast and topcoat w/o sanding within the time window. It wouldn't look like cast if it was mirror smooth anyway :o). Plus I think the tractor would look rather wierd and unnatural.

third party image Rod

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KCSUPERMMAN

03-18-2005 21:36:34




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 Re: Painting Help - Rod, Frank, CNKS, anyone? in reply to Rod (NH), 03-18-2005 09:27:16  
Rod
In your opinion, is the MP 181 surfacer as good as the OMNI MP182 - because I don"t have a fresh air mask. Or should I look into purchasing one (fresh air breathing equipment), and then use the MP182 instead of the MP 181 surfacer?
Thanks
Ken



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Rod (NH)

03-19-2005 10:05:53




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 Re: Painting Help - Rod, Frank, CNKS, anyone? in reply to KCSUPERMMAN, 03-18-2005 21:36:34  
Ken,

The MP181 is a lacquer based surfacer that was popular before the urethanes were common. I have used the DuPont equivalent to MP181 - DuPont 131S - many times in the past very successfully. It works well but being a lacquer based product, it is not the preferred modern technology and, if not applied properly, can lead to loss of gloss and sandscratches showing. Since I have fresh air breathing equipment, I have moved to the urethane based surfacer, MP182 and likely will never go back to the lacquer based product. Is the 182 "better" than the 181? Sure. But it is not enough better to risk your health using if you don't have the right respiratory equipment. Being a urethane based product, the 182 hardener contains isocyanates. It is my belief (based on past personal experience as well as manufacturer and regulatory agency recommendations) that the safe use of such products requires a positive pressure fresh air respirator.

That equipment is not cheap. The least expensive FA respirator that I am aware of is the Hobby-Air for about $400. And it goes up from there. If you are serious about painting and wish to use the better, modern urethanes or even just hardened enamel topcoats, you should plan on getting such equipment. You will not regret it. Otherwise, you are pretty much left to using old technology materials such as the lacquer based surfacers and the unhardened enamels or playing fast and loose with your own good health. There is no compelling advantage to using the 182 over the 181 under an unhardened enamel so if this is your only planned paint job and you are going to use an unhardened topcoat, then save your money (and breath) and use the the 181.

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