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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Picklex20/Seam Sealer?

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Rod (NH)

04-08-2005 08:16:49

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CNKS/Others:

Have you ever used a seam sealer under or over Picklex 20? I'm doing my AC-B fenders and ran across an issue. The fenders (originally for steel wheels) are a two-piece arrangement where extensions are attached to the standard fenders by spot welding a lap seam. You can see the joint here.

My plan is as follows:
1. Sandblast to bright metal
2. Picklex 20 - My first use of this
3. Epoxy prime - MP170
4. 2K surfacer - MP182
5. SS Urethane - MTK

My concern is existing rust under the lap seam creeping out beneath the new paint. I want to keep moisture and oxygen out of the seam in an attempt to prevent that. The best fix is to weld the seam up but I am trying to avoid that. Another potential is to use a seam sealer. However, I'm unsure about applying it either under or over the Picklex. Perhaps I should wait until the epoxy is down and then apply it but I would like to keep a continuous film of epoxy over the joint. I know Picklex will seep into the seam but I am nervous about it effectively "treating" anything other than light surface rust. This is definitely not light surface rust.

All comments, thoughts, recommendations welcome.

Rod

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CNKS

04-08-2005 14:07:32

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to Rod (NH), 04-08-2005 08:16:49

I don't have a clue -- I doubt if you can get uniform distribution of the Picklex in the seam itself, and with that kind of rust, it may not "convert" it. What I would do (maybe) is separate the pieces by drilling out the spot welds (bear in mind I have never done that), clean it up, then pop rivet them back together, providing that the rivets fill the holes, maybe not. I suppose you could spot weld them back, if you have that attachment, and fill the old holes. I don't know that much about welding, spot or otherwise. It appears that the depressions are deep enough to cover the rivet heads, then use body filler, unless you have to have the original look. The other side of the fenders is out of sight. I don't think there is an easy way.

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Rod (NH)

04-08-2005 20:13:00

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to CNKS, 04-08-2005 14:07:32

Thanks for the response. Yes, I could drill out the spot welds. I really don't want to. I have done that on modern car body parts that are spot welded in place, then plug-welded replacement parts back on. There's a special cutter for the purpose. However, this stuff is 0.075" thick (14 gage). That's about three times the normal thickness used today in cars. Think fenders from a '40's Ford. And I can't readily see all the spots well enough to center the cutter. Some are obvious as shown in the photo but a lot of others are not. I'm afraid I'd mess the whole works up by trying to separate the two pieces. I'd rather just weld up the seam with a continuous bead if it comes to that. Seam sealer is a lot like a silicone caulking compound, although it is paintable. I looked at a couple of 3M seam sealer tech sheets for some info. They do not recommend direct to bare metal and also do not recommend applying over etch primer. The concern is any residual acid in the etch could affect the bond. Hmmm...I suppose there would be a similar concern with Picklex because of the phosphoric acid in it, although if it were completely dry I expect there would be no residual acid left to cause a problem. But it's not really a primer either so I'm a little shaky about the sealer over Picklex. Also, the more I think about it, I really don't want to risk putting an acid on top of anything but bare metal.

I am now pondering a Picklex-epoxy-sealer-epoxy procedure. I would like a continuous film of epoxy across the joint if possible. I'm concerned about drying of the Picklex that seeps into the lap joint...even prior to the first epoxy. I don't want any to "wick" back out and possibly affect the bond. I guess allowing a liberal time plus compressed air at the seam or perhaps some mild heating with a heat gun would provide some assurance of dryness in the joint. This seems to have gotten more involved than I had originally planned :o). You're right. There's no easy way.

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CNKS

04-09-2005 09:30:50

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to Rod (NH), 04-08-2005 20:13:00

I may have been the 1st one to recommend Picklex on this board, not sure. Perhaps I shouldn't have. I found out about it while corresponding with a person much like yourself who has had many years of experience, and told me to use it instead of "metalprep". If you visit the Paintucation forum, I believe his handle is GaryL--you might ask him for his opinion, as you two guys are almost always on the same page -- he even has an old Allis B or C, I believe. I use it mainly as a rust preventative as opposed to a rust converter, although I sometimes try to convert rust with it on certain areas I haven't sandblasted, and where it is difficult to physically remove the rust. It is an acid, although H3PO4 is classed as a "weak" acid, unlike hydrochloric and sulfuric, which will eat through nearly anything. However the only way to remove acid is to neutralize it, meaning the stuff may have long term activity in an area such as in the seams of your fenders. I have used it on cast, I am sure it got into the pores, after about 3 years I see no lifiting of paint on the first tractor I used it on -- but I am somehow still leery of the stuff, and have cut back my use of it. For one thing, I don't have the humidity you do, and have found I can leave bare metal inside, literally for months without visible rust (not saying it hasn't started, I just can't see it). Having said that, I don't believe it will lift the epoxy or the sealer, that being due to my success using it directly under epoxy on cast. I usually get most of it off (I think) during the wax and grease remover (DX330) treatment prior to painting. But, on the first tractor's cast I used 330 over the Picklex until the rags came back clean, then applied another coat of Picklex, and merely scuffed off the white residue before painting, followed by one or two applications of DX330. But, I have never had a chemist explain to me exactly what was going on, and am hesitant to say that you will never see damage, particularly since certain things such as your sealer say not to apply it over etch primer, which also has some sort of acid component.

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Rod (NH)

04-09-2005 12:19:51

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to CNKS, 04-09-2005 09:30:50

I put the Picklex on today. I don't know why you would think that you "shouldn't have" recommended it. It's the ideal product for what I want to use it for. The sealer thing just complicates the matter. I am not surprised at that. It's the reason I don't use etch primers at all. The stuff looks like the DuPont 5717S phosphoric acid "cleaner", the first step in the two step 5717S/5718S acid metal prep from DuPont. It's a darker green though and I think the phosphoric acid concentration is higher in the Picklex. I like the idea of a one-step, no water wash application. My use of it is when I sandblast and do not plan on priming right away, which is the case with my B fenders. I normally epoxy prime within a couple of hours of blasting - if that happens, I don't use any prep. If not, well I have no other place to turn. I have seen fingerprints show up as minor rust within a couple of days on a sandblasted surface. The 5717S/5718S is not recommended for use on a sandblasted surface - I think because of the recommended water wash after each step. However, the Picklex is recommended for use on such surfaces so it works out fine for me - at least so far.

I am going to proceed to epoxy prime the fender in a couple of days. That will be the next step after I braze up a couple of minor rust-through holes. I then plan on applying a small bead of seam sealer to the joint and as soon as it has cured, apply another coat of epoxy. I always use two coats of epoxy anyway so I'll just sandwich the sealer between the two. That should keep me in compliance with recommendations and provide the continuous film of epoxy across the joint that I wanted.

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CNKS

04-09-2005 12:51:13

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to Rod (NH), 04-09-2005 12:19:51

I suppose the "shouldn't have" thing came up because, although I do it, I am hesitant to recommend it to others for use on cast, because it can get caught in the pores. I believe you have mentioned that some manufacturers recommend that etch primers not be used on cast--I was thinking that perhaps Picklex shouldn't be either. I have no proof either way. But, I have not had any trouble with it on cast--yet. Anyway, that's not the subject of this thread. On sheet metal I don't see any problem. As to your fenders, they are probably thick enough that it will not cause any problem (not concentrated enough to do any real damage), and the way you are doing it, not priming for a couple of days, the reaction is pretty well complete. Then you are sealing the stuff in with epoxy, you are probably ok. In fact, other than the white film, I can't visibly see any reaction at all. The person who recommended it to me says to wait at least overnight before using epoxy, I wait a lot longer than that.

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Rod (NH)

04-09-2005 19:37:11

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to CNKS, 04-09-2005 12:51:13

I have not noticed any stated recommendations against etch primers on cast. The couple of tech sheets I have seen simply don't address it at all. The products that are specifically not recommended for cast are PPG's DX phosphoric acid metal pre-treatments (DX579/DX520). DuPont's equivalent products (5717S/5718S) are silent on the matter, probably because cast is not a common base in the auto refinish business. Not many cast fenders around :o). I suspect, but don't know, that PPG does not recommend the phosphoric treatment for cast because of the pores in a casting possibly trapping the acid and causing trouble later. I'm really just guessing here. Doesn't mean it will happen. Most manufacturer's like to be safe though. As you know, the paint manufacturer's get blamed all the time for poor products because of people not following the specific written instructions and basically misusing the product. I also think such a situation was the cause for DuPont (perhaps PPG also) to include the water wash after their phosphoric treatment products. People were not drying sufficiently to prevent problems with acid remnants. Years ago the 5717S never had a water wash requirement - just a wipe down to a dry condition. I have used it that way on sheet steel in the past with no problem. Both PPG and DuPont are silent on the use of such products on sandblasted surfaces. However, I think Henkel Surface Technologies actually produces the chemicals for both PPG and DuPont. Henkel states not to use the chemicals on sandblasted surfaces because "rust will form instantaneously". Henkel is silent on castings.

After your suggestion, I decided to post my situation over at Paintucation as soon as I can get "authorized" to post. I have registered but have to await some kind of "activation" email. I have no idea how long that will take. I did post the matter over at the autobody 101.com forum the other day. Lots of views but only one response so far. The fellow offered a suggestion to use a heavily bodied POR15 as a sealer. I am not sure he understood that I was sandblasting. I have never used POR15 but believe it to be basically a rust treatment product. Most of those actually need rust to do their thing. I haven't posted over at autobodystore.com and probably won't. I did a couple of years ago but soured on the place after I suggested a backyard type solution (which I knew worked because I had done it several times in the past) once and got drilled by one of the regulars because it wasn't recommended by the high-enders. Seems the inner circle doesn't appreciate methods that aren't in agreement with their standard practice. I find their common reference to "daily drivers" somewhat condescending. The regulars there seem to have difficulty departing in any way from a pro-shop, Mercedes mentality. I browse regularly but don't post there anymore. I don't need arguments and peeing contests. I've got better things to do. The autobody 101 forum seems more down to earth from what little I have seen of it and Paintucation similarly appears more receptive to needs and situations of backyard hobbyists.

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CNKS

04-10-2005 07:34:10

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to Rod (NH), 04-09-2005 19:37:11

I agree with your comments on the autobodystore forum, always a wacko there. Haven't been to paintucation in a while, looks like it has been changed considerably -- didn't see your post and don't remember if I am registered or not, I don't think so. The moderator, I believe Kevin is his name also answers a lot of questions. He worked in a body shop until a year or two ago, was very active in the forum, and now is moderator full time, having left the body shop. Seems quite knowledgable, but may not have a lot of knowledge about the "weird" things that that us tractor guys do. As to Picklex on cast, I posed a similar question to the "CEO" of that company, I think Sen is his name; he didn't seem to have much of an opinion on it. The question I asked was really more about getting the cast clean after I used it. Cast is hard to clean anyway, and the Picklex reacts with it, meaning there is a black reaction product that comes off on the rag -- he did not give a good answer on that one either, but said the cast was dirty to begin with, which is true -- .

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Rod (NH)

04-10-2005 18:16:51

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to CNKS, 04-10-2005 07:34:10

My post is now up at Paintucation. I didn't get any "authorization" to post until this morning. I had to wait for an "authentication" email. I decided to put together a series of photos on painting this fender. I'am also trying out a new free photo album hosting service. You can check out the progress to date here if you wish. Click on the thumbnails to bring up the full size and the captions. I wanted to prime the fender tomorrow but temperatures are supposed to drop back into the 40s as a maximum for the next few days so it will have to wait. Although it is not humid this time of the year, I'm glad I used the Picklex on it.

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CNKS

04-11-2005 17:44:02

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Re: Picklex20/Seam Sealer? in reply to Rod (NH), 04-10-2005 18:16:51

Looks you got one answer on paintucation so far that agrees with what you said. As to etch over cast, I think my feeble brain was thinking about Picklex AND etch on cast (or on anything for that matter), I think that's a no-no. Going to get me a digital camera some day, and keep track of things like you do with your fenders -- but there is never enough money left over from buying tractor parts -- Just bought another tractor today I don't need, a Farmall C.

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