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Primers

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Daniel H.

07-07-2005 10:51:06




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Hi,
I'm painting a Farmall and need some advice on primers. When I painted my Super A a few years ago, I used PPG DelStar over Case/IH Ironguard primer. This worked out pretty well, butI wonder if it would be better to use a PPG primer as well, this time. I look at the epxoy, DP50LF, but it has a one week topcoat window. I would like to prime things like the transmission case and final drives after I sandblast but before I reassemble them to keep them from flash rusting. That means there is no way I can get them all rebuilt and be ready to topcaot inside of 7 days. Supposedly you can scuff it up and lay down another coat, but that will we tough with the nook and crannies on the castings. I thought about a phosphoric acid wash, but no one recomends anything like that on cast iron or after sandblasting. What about a self-etching primer or a filler/primer. And what is a surfacer? I want to do this right. Thanks

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Rod (NH)

07-08-2005 17:20:23




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 Re: Primers in reply to Daniel H., 07-07-2005 10:51:06  
Hi Daniel,

The DPLF is PPG's premium epoxy primer. The number 50 indicates the color, by the way. It's available in several different colors - the 50 is gray. It's an outstanding product. I've used it in the past where it has remained on sheetmetal outside continuously for 10 years in NH weather, without a topcoat and without any hint of rust showing through. In my opinion, you cannot buy a better primer for bare metal. It is expensive however. Because of that, I have moved to PPG's OMNI epoxy, MP170 which is a similar product but significantly less expensive in PPG's OMNI "economy" line of paint products. The MP170 has a three day window instead of a seven day window so that doesn't help you out any. I am not aware of any epoxy from any manufacturer that does not have a topcoat time window attached to it. The similar DuPont epoxy has a 24 hr window. So I don't think you will gain anything by brand shopping. I don't think it's that big a deal though. The use of a 3M Scotch-Brite hand pad makes the scuffing job fairly easy in getting into the nooks and crannies. In my opinion that extra effort of scuffing and recoating the epoxy is a small price to pay
to get the better corrosion protection and adhesion that are provided by the epoxy over any other primer product. I am sure your idea of using a different primer over the epoxy at a later date would work. However, I don't think it would eliminate some type of scuffing operation so I don't see you gaining anything.

I am not a fan of etch primers and don't use them at all. They generally have more restrictions on their use than epoxy does. In fact, I think you will find a similar time window for etch primers and I don't think you would get the corrosion protection that epoxy provides. For instance, PPG's OMNI etch primer, MP176 calls for sanding (scuffing) and recoating with itself after 24 hours before another product - and you can't topcoat it directly. I see no gain at all from the use of an etch primer in your situation. In fact it would be worse than an epoxy if not followed soon by something else.

Surfacers, sometimes called filler/primers, are for filling sandscratches after a sanding operation in order to provide a smooth surface for the topcoat. They have no particular use on rough cast surfaces and they should be sanded prior to continuing anyway. The epoxy is non-sanding (unless you miss the window).

My recommendation is to apply a coat of epoxy immediately (same day) after your sandblasting. That will provide the best protection until final assembly and ready for painting. After assembly, when the time comes, clean with a specialized cleaning product such as PPG DX330 Acryli-Clean, scuff with a Scotch-Brite hand pad, apply another coat of epoxy and proceed to topcoat directly within the time window for the exact product used. That's for the cast. For sheetmetal, you would usually be involved with sandscratches so a surfacer would typically be used between the epoxy and topcoat.

By the way, since you have the main housings completely dissasembled, you might want to consider coating the interior surfaces also, if they are not already coated. Glyptal has been the standard product for the interiors of cast engine blocks and gear housings for many years.

third party image Rod

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Daniel H.

07-08-2005 19:45:15




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 Re: Primers in reply to Rod (NH), 07-08-2005 17:20:23  
Thanks for the ideas. This is a Cub, by the way so it will not take alot of what ever I use. The castings have the glytal coating intact on the insides. Everybody says the DP50 is expensive, I paid right at $80.00 for a quart and the catalyst, does this seem right? I didn't price the Delstar, but the last I bought was $180 for three quarts of IH red, a gallon of reducer, and the hardener. This time I have a HVLP turbine and gun, I got the who thing new in the box for 85.00 from tractor supply (It had been 300+, but was on clearence) so I couldn't pass on it. It is a cambell hausfield, I hope it is not junk. Anyway thanks to everyone for sharing their expertese.

Daniel

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Rod (NH)

07-09-2005 08:29:15




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 Re: Primers in reply to Daniel H., 07-08-2005 19:45:15  
I'd guess that price for DPLF is in the ballpark. I haven't bought any of it in about five years so I'm not up on the current price. Although it's a top notch product, I consider that $27 per sprayable pint is high - too high for me unless I can pass the cost along, which I can't. There are reasonable, less expensive alternatives out there. That's why I moved from DPLF to MP170 about three years ago. The price figures given by Scott up above for the MP170 seem about right at one forth the cost ($6+) per sprayable pint. Granted, buying by the gallon rather than quart gets some economy of scale but not that much. Comparative quantities being equal, I would expect the DPLF to be about three times the cost of the MP170. Do you get three times the value from the DPLF? I don't think so, unless you are willing to pay a high premium for a seven day window instead of a three day window or, for some reason, need it in colors other than gray.

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CNKS

07-07-2005 17:21:09




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 Re: Primers in reply to Daniel H., 07-07-2005 10:51:06  
You can use a rust preventative such as Picklex 20 on cast -- at least I have and have had no problems so far. It will last for months, maybe longer. However, before painting I repeatedly scrub it with DX 330, which probably washes it partially out of the pores. I have heard (once) of other phosphoric acid treatments lifting the paint several weeks or months after painting. Picklex 20 is a phosphoric acid product, but it hasn't happened to me, yet. Otherwise, I don't worry about rust much. I live in a dry climate, and kept inside, bare cast or anything else does not rust, kept inside in a closed building -- open in the summer, unless it is raining, so for my purposes I probably don't need anything. A surfacer is put on top of epoxy primer, and can be sanded for a smooth finish before topcoating -- it is not applied to bare metal, that is epoxy's purpose. Epoxy gives a good base for either topcoat or surfacer, but does not sand well. Be careful when you sandblast. Unless the castings are empty, there are several places that sand can penetrate where you don't want it.

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Daniel H.

07-08-2005 08:46:39




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 Re: Primers in reply to CNKS, 07-07-2005 17:21:09  
The castings are bare, no gears or anything. This is a total overhaul. Thats why ther is no way I can get them back together and ready to paint inside of 7 days. I wanted to prime them before reassembly. Would it be ok to put on the epoxy and then another type of plain primer (within 7 days) and then reassemble, wipe down with the degreaser, and shoot the Delstar? What type of primer over the epoxy?

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CNKS

07-08-2005 14:02:35




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 Re: Primers in reply to Daniel H., 07-08-2005 08:46:39  
I am not familiar with the materials you are using, only PPG Omni. The link is a list of PPG products. Find the spec sheet for the epoxy you want to use, in it there will be a list of compatible products to put over it. Yes that will work, however on cast, you are spending money for a second primer you don't need in the system, and you are using a expensive paint system. It will protect the surface, and "probably" does not have a recoat window, but read the sheet to be sure. Your other alternative is to use the Picklex, do your work then treat with wax and grease remover before priming and painting. The Picklex will react with the metal, and it will take reapeated cleaning before your rags come back clean. One other way ---I have a bare chassis that has been that way for months -- no rust. the tractor is split, the block and wide front axle are laying on the floor. I plan on using PPG Omni MP 170, and topcoating within the 3 day window, then reassembling. The block and rear end will be painted separately. The bolts will be painted separately, then touched up with a brush after assembly. One reason I am painting before reassembly, is because it is difficult to paint all the contours, nooks and crannies on the whole engine and chassis at the same time. It is very easy to get overspray on areas already painted, or accidentally repainting an area with a double pass. This causes dieback, the result of which is the paint loses it's shine. This does not occur immediately but may take a few weeks/months. I certainly don't recommend splitting a tractor to paint, but since it is already split, I'm going to try it.

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scott#2

07-07-2005 11:04:41




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 Re: Primers in reply to Daniel H., 07-07-2005 10:51:06  
Daniel,

I have pestered CNKS and Rod to pieces about my project. Read all the posts below. The way I am doing it is in stages. Prep then MP-170 primer then topcoat in the three day window on the main drive line and front end componets. Then prime the other pieces and top coat them a group at a time (or surfacer if you need it to fill in very small imperfections) within the 3 day window. I just got off the phone with the PPG guy and I mentioned the DP 50 LF and the way he laughed meant to me that it would probably be about $500.00 in DP50LF primer alone for a gallon. I would do it in stages and use the MP 170.


scott#2

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