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How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys?

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scott#@

07-16-2005 06:58:41




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I know its stupid to ask and their are alot of variables involved in a picture of a paint color but I was just wondering what you guys think of this PPG 71310 tractor color? Does it look in any way orange to you all? They mix this paint on a scale and ya, I can see that it would make a BIG DIFFERENCE on who mixes it.

scott

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GordoSD

07-17-2005 15:28:19




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to scott#@, 07-16-2005 06:58:41  
What are you going to do with 1 qt of paint? You will most likely need 5-6 qts. Once you get that , you "box" it together so all your paint is the same. Don't run out! I used the PPG ALK-200,color 08-71096 and believe it is the closest I have ever seen for a Farmall match.

GordoSD



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scott#2

07-17-2005 18:09:35




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to GordoSD, 07-17-2005 15:28:19  
Actually its only about 6oz. for a color test shot. Im not quite as dumb as you think...well mabey sometimes.

scott#2



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CNKS

07-17-2005 17:36:25




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to GordoSD, 07-17-2005 15:28:19  
He is experimenting looking for the right color, thus the one quart (or less). I'm going to look on the PPG website for the paint you listed, haven't heard of it -- if I don't find it, what is ALK-200, and where did you get the color code?



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CNKS

07-17-2005 17:57:44




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to CNKS, 07-17-2005 17:36:25  
I found it -- It is an "acrylic modified enamel", a form of aklyd or synthetic enamel, most likely similar to, or even the equivalent of Case-IH 2150 acrylic modified. It is a "commercial" coating. I am more interested in the number 71096, and am going to ask my PPG dealer if it can be mixed in Omni acrylic urethane, which is what I want, and also if it crosses to a IH number, as there were at least four different ones. Usually the number does not change between lines of paint, but sometimes it does. If it is a dark red with no or very little orange in it, I may use it. The link does not go directly to the spec sheet, but it can be linked to. It also does not mention hardener, and is very slow drying. Thanks for the info, it gives us something else to check out!

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CNKS

07-17-2005 18:03:39




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to CNKS, 07-17-2005 17:57:44  
The hardened version uses ALK 201 catalyst, and is immediately under the 200 in the previous link.



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CNKS

07-16-2005 09:40:45




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to scott#@, 07-16-2005 06:58:41  
It looks a little orange. My advice is to get the mixer to mix the paint exactly as per instructions, not 0.001 gram off on any toner, then you will have the exact 71310. I do not know how you tell an inexperienced mixer to do that. As the DuPont version of IH 2150 (96766) has no orange in it, I am not saying it is correct. You are not going to know until you spray something. In my mind a slight orange tint is ok, something "greater than slight" isn't. The appearance of your tractor will depend on what light it is in. If you paint under flourescent lights, and let it sit a while, you will swear that it is Rod(NH)'s Allis. In the sunlight it will probably look ok. My advice is to spray some medium-sized piece, rather than the whole tractor, and see if you like it. You can then have the orange toner reduced, or the red one increased -- but it is probably just a big guess. I am about to have the same problem when I paint my 460, not too far away.

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scottt#2

07-16-2005 18:13:15




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to CNKS, 07-16-2005 09:40:45  
CNKS,

I watched this guy mix the paint and it wasnt a real accurate job on this test sample, probably close enough by their standards, considering they mix and pour paint by hand all day long. There is no computer "shots" of paint involved in PPG's mixing. I was watching the cumulative totals as individual colors or "toners went in. I cant believe that .001 gram or 2 can make that kind of difference, its only a very small drop or 2. Looks more to me like PPG just didnt get a good color match when they developed the paint formula and/or code. When I first look at the pic I posted on this forum, it looks ok to me. Then I look a little longer and it does look like it has an orange tint, is that just eyes and mind playing tricks? I have all the weights of toners for the mix. Given the chance, which colors would you cut back on and which would you increase for your idea of the correct color. I know the color your talking about, I drove alot of very nice, original farmalls as a kid. Once you see it all the time, you never really forget it. I will do as you say and paint a piece up and post it too. What do you think, you too Rod, if your around. Thank You Sir,

scott#2

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CNKS

07-16-2005 19:30:03




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to scottt#2, 07-16-2005 18:13:15  
I have not seen the local mixing rack -- my statement about the fraction of the gram, meant that they should use the scale they have to it's accuracy. If it weighs to 0.1 gram, that's what they should use, 0.01 then use that accuracy, etc. You are correct that the error is small. There are 566.4 grams/gal of orange in 71310, hard to imagine 0.1 gram making any difference, but if they make a 0.5 gram error in all the meausurements, maybe that is enough to cause problems. As you can probably tell I know nothing about mixing paint. But, early in my career, I worked in a chemical lab -- that is where I learned accuracy, and also learned what happened if I was not careful enough -- mixing paint is the same principle. The DuPont rep, Frank Stalfire, says that any color code, for tractors, at least, is someone's idea of what the color should be, using a photo, or perhaps a painted item off a tractor that supposedly is correct. Perhaps 71310 is not the correct color for IH 2150, I don't know, as I have not compared it with any other brand. I don't know when or where 71310 was developed. As to what I would cut back on, it would be the orange toner, I have no clue as to how much. The other thing that you can do, if you want to, is to purchase a small quantity of Case-IH 2150, and have the dealer match that. Also IH 2150 was not developed by IH until 1961. There were at least 4 shades of paint, the original IH 50, then 1102B, then 201, then 2150. All of these are different shades, and will differ among themselves depending on who mixes them. One other thing -- Omni is an economy line, meaning that the toners are not as high a quality as they are in, say, Concept. Perhaps there is variation in the individual batches of toners. Perhaps because of the lower quality, the paint does not cure to the same color, each time -- I simply do not know. But, as far as I'm concerned, 71310 does change color. It goes on red, then as it cures, it changes to the orange tint. I have seen that happen twice, within a couple of hours. May be my eyes, I don't know. I have also heard that it will get darker (more red) if you park your tractor outside in the sun for several days -- dunno about that one. I have told you all I know, which as you can see isn't much. Perhaps Rod can elaborate.

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CNKS

07-16-2005 19:36:22




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to CNKS, 07-16-2005 19:30:03  
Rod responded as I was typing my response, I agree with what he said. I did make a mistake in the orange toner, looked at the AE card for a quart, the AU orange toner is 2806.8 grams per gallon, meaning as you say, a small error should have no effect. I'm beginning to think that the problem may be the quality of the Omni toners, I simply do not know.



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Rod (NH)

07-16-2005 20:09:35




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to CNKS, 07-16-2005 19:36:22  
Another thought:

I doubt that getting near perfect color matches in modern paints for 50 year-old farm equipment is a marketing priority for either DuPont or PPG. Their refinishing business is getting the best possible color matches for current automobiles. They do well in that, at least for the premium lines. That's where some of the costs are in the premium paints - refinements in color matching. I am told that some of the PPG premium auto colors have several different "variations" in the exact same formula number. This is apparently necessary to accommodate slight tint variations as the OEMs change color runs on the assembly lines. In other words, the first batch of blue cars right after a run of red ones might have a slight red tint due to remnants of red in the paint storage tanks. The only way to determine which of the "variations" in the same formula to use is to compare sample sprayout cards with the actual automobile. My very limited experience also indicates that for panel matching cars, the "economy" line OMNI BC is definitely not as good as the premium Deltron BC, even with a "middle-of-the-road" variation in the Deltron. OMNI doesn't offer variations at all - at least not formally from the company.

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Rod (NH)

07-16-2005 19:17:24




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to scottt#2, 07-16-2005 18:13:15  
Scott,

I really have no knowledge on IH colors. Why don't you get a qt of the DuPont equivalent 96766 to compare it with. To me the color in the cap does have a slight orange tint to it. That in the can less so. It really is difficult, next to impossible really, to detect subtle differences in shades of colors on different computer screens. There are just too many viables involved. The fact that there is no tint called an orange in (one of) the 96766 formula doesn't mean anything in my opinion. There can be several different "reds", some of which could be quite orange in tint. For example, here are the tints for DuPont 96766 in ChromaOne Acrylic Urethane:
884J LS RED OXIDE 850J BRILLIANT RED 886J OPAQUE RED 869J CABERNET RED

It also depends on the line and chemistry. For example, here are the mixing tints for the same 96766 in NASON FulThane Acrylic Urethane:
430-18 ORANGE 430-56 RED VIOLET 430-17 YELLOW 430-04 WHITE

Presumably, they both will result in the same color.

The only way that I know of to be satisfied with a particular color shade is to do an actual sprayout. Even then, the lighting can play some tricks on your eyes - more so on the sensor in your digital camera. In some lighting, my AC persian orange takes on a definite yellow tint in digital photos that I don't notice anywhere near as much with my naked eyes.

Here's your can of 71310 as compared with a nice looking IH that I saw today working a stationary baler in Woodstock, NH. I have no idea what paint was on it. Different cameras, different lighting also. So no real conclusion can be had.
third party image
third party image

If you are really picky on the shade, I would get a can of the 2150 from the IH dealer plus a can of the DuPont 96766 and do comparative sprayouts of those together with the PPG 71310 that you already have. Then see how things stack up.

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Rod (NH)

07-17-2005 08:17:56




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to Rod (NH), 07-16-2005 19:17:24  
Hmmm... Guess Yahoo doesn't like direct linking of photos. Their loss. I'll do it this way:
third party image
third party image



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scott#2

07-17-2005 10:36:49




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to Rod (NH), 07-17-2005 08:17:56  
Yep, thats the shade that is so deeply entrenched in my mind from childhood. Guess I have some work to do in the color departmrnt. Glad I didnt get a gallon mixed. Thanks Rod and Cnks, Ill be getting back to you with some samples, probably next week.


scott



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Daniel H.

07-17-2005 16:22:17




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to scott#2, 07-17-2005 10:36:49  
Here are some pictures of my 1951 Super A. I shot it with PPG Delstar mixed to 2150. I restored it in 1998-1999.



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Daniel H.

07-17-2005 16:20:32




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 Re: How does this red for a 50 SA look to you guys in reply to scott#2, 07-17-2005 10:36:49  
Here are some pictures of my 1951 Super A. I shot it with PPG Delstar mixed to 2150. I restored it in 1998-1999.



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Daniel H.

07-17-2005 16:27:42




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 My link wasn't right - Super A w/ PPG Red in reply to Daniel H., 07-17-2005 16:20:32  
I didn't type the url right, sorry. Click each image for a larger view.



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scott#2

07-17-2005 18:00:02




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 Re: My link wasn't right - Super A w/ PPG Red in reply to Daniel H., 07-17-2005 16:27:42  
Just what I was looking for. Thats is the color I am thinking about and a Real Nice looking machine you got there. Hard to see orange in those shots. I guess the pic that Rod posted was of a different "color year" but I still remember that shade of red vividly from my younger years. Wonder if I can use that Delstar product over mp 182 and mp170?

Thank You for the nice pictures,

scott#2



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Daniel H.

07-18-2005 07:27:23




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 Re: My link wasn't right - Super A w/ PPG Red in reply to scott#2, 07-17-2005 18:00:02  
If my memory serves me well, I paid $183.00 for the paint, the hardener, and the reducer in 1999. I used three quarts of red and had a little left over. I bought a gallon of reducer, and a quart of hardener ( I thnk a quart, might have been a pint.

Daniel



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Rod (NH)

07-17-2005 19:34:30




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 Fun With Colors in reply to scott#2, 07-17-2005 18:00:02  
As I said, I know nothing about Farmalls or their colors. I don't know what year or model that one was or if the color was "correct" or not. Here's an interesting comparison:
third party image
The top portion is the tractor I took a picture of yesterday. The lower one is Daniel's. The small square overlays are from your picture of the 71310 - one is from the cover and the other is from inside the can itself. I don't see an orange tint in Daniel's tractor. I do in your cover shot. Actually, the view inside your can makes a fair match to Daniel's tractor. Considering all the variables we are dealing with here, of course. I do know that different digital camera sensors see some shades differently so this is only a fun exercise with no definite conclusion :o). It would be nice to also see that 71096, in comparison.

PPG's Delstar and DuPont's Centari are about as good as it gets in an acrylic enamel - in my opinion. It is significantly more expensive than the OMNI. I have used quite a bit of Delstar in the past but haven't been able to get it mixed at all anywhere in my area for several years. It does seem to be still available in the midwest however. If you can find it in your area, I think you would be pleased with it. Before you decide definitely on Delstar, I recommend you do a full cost comparison (in ready-to-spray quantities) with Concept acrylic urethane in PPG's Deltron Line. Comparative color-only prices are here for Delstar and here for Concept. If you find the RTS prices not much greater for the Concept, I'd go with the Concept simply because it is a true acrylic urethane rather than a urethane-modified acrylic enamel (Delstar w/hardener DXR80).

Although I have never done it myself, and usually don't recommend such things, I feel quite confident that you would have no problem applying either Delstar or Concept over either MP170 or MP182. If faced with the choice, I would do it myself, especially if I already had the primer and surfacer - I feel it is that low of a risk. What I would not do is use an OMNI hardener or reducer in either the Delstar or the Concept. I think that's a higher risk that's just asking for trouble. Use the proper mix ingredients for the product.

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CNKS

07-17-2005 20:10:00




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 Re: Fun With Colors in reply to Rod (NH), 07-17-2005 19:34:30  
The ability to use Concept over Omni primers "might" convince me to use Concept, given the apparant inconsistent results with Omni 71310. However Omni 71310 is about $120 with hardener, Concept, according to your link would be about $260 with hardener, for the red colors. Perhaps the additional $140 or so is not too much (if I don't screw it up). If I have to use the epoxy and surfacer in the Concept line, it is too expensive for me. There is a single stage Concept that you don't have to clear coat?

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Rod (NH)

07-17-2005 21:15:08




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 Re: Fun With Colors in reply to CNKS, 07-17-2005 20:10:00  
There are three products in the Deltron line. Two different basecoats that require clearcoating (DBC and DBU) and a single stage that does not (Concept, also know as DCC). The Concept by definition is a single stage. I have never used it but Jason (MA) has so if he reads this he might pop in with a comment. I believe that Concept is to MTK as Delstar is to MAE. Those prices seem high to me but since they are from the same place I guess they should be OK for a relative comparison between the Concept and Delstar. Of course that's only the color portion. One would have to get the costs of the mix products and ratios to work out an RTS cost comparison.

I really don't think there would be a problem using Concept over MP170 or MP182. No guarantees of course, since I've never done it :o).

This has gotten to be quite a thread. I noticed in the "paint codes" section of this site there is a DuPont 7410 Dulux listed as "IHC Red". Dulux was a DuPont alkyd enamel that is no longer available but the 7410 checks out as still a valid number for many DuPont modern chemistries. The DuPont-to-PPG cross that I have crosses 7410 to PPG 71969. Still another "red" for consideration. Frank Stalfire probably had the best suggestion: If one knows for sure that the dealer IH2150 is the color they want, then they should get some and do a sprayout. If they want to move up to a better chemistry, take the sprayout to a DuPont jobber to see how close they can come with their Spectramaster generic colors that are available in all DuPont chemistries, as far as I know. There probably is a similar mechanism with PPG - I just don't know about it. I do know that the DuPont YS074 Spectramaster "Yellow" is the best match that I have seen from DuPont for my early AC persian orange - better than any other more "standard" Dupont formula numbers.

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CNKS

07-17-2005 19:25:38




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 Re: My link wasn't right - Super A w/ PPG Red in reply to scott#2, 07-17-2005 18:00:02  
To be safe, you have to use the products listed on the Delstar topcoat sheet -- see the PPG web site.



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CNKS

07-17-2005 17:31:39




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 Re: My link wasn't right - Super A w/ PPG Red in reply to Daniel H., 07-17-2005 16:27:42  
It looks good -- Delstar is a higher quality paint, and uses different toners than Omni. If I use my imagination, I can see an orange tint, but not as much as Omni--thanks!



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