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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Lighting and Colors

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Rod (NH)

07-21-2005 18:20:42




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Lighting and digital cameras can equal wierd colors. The combined picture below was taken today of my AC-B. Click on the thumbnail to get a full sized version. The bottom portion was taken about 4 PM when the sun was shining on the tractor at an angle. The color depicted here is far too yellow for this persian orange. You do not notice this drastic a yellow tint with your eyes - only in the digital photo. You notice the tint change immediately in the viewfinder even before the picture is taken. The top portion was taken at about 6:30 PM when the sun had lowered enough beyond some trees to put the tractor just in the shade. This is a good approximation of the shade that you see with your eyes at all times, even when in the direct sunlight. The photos have not been digitally altered except for a mild sharpening, reduction in size and combining into one. The same camera was used with full automatic exposure control. Paint is PPG OMNI MTK acrylic urethane single stage plus MC161 urethane clear on top.
third party image
It's a wierd thing to see. It seems to have something to do with the angle of the sun also. For example, the photo below was taken (similarly with the same camera) of the same right fender just after painting it about a month ago. It was in direct sunlight but the sun was almost directly overhead. third party image
That gross yellow tint does not come out in this photo at all. I have no explanation for this other than the camera sensor seeing color shades differently under different lighting conditions.

third party image Rod

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Jason(ma)

07-23-2005 04:20:08




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to Rod (NH), 07-21-2005 18:20:42  
I find when I set my camera for 8 mp the colors are fine, (3 meg file). When I try to cheat and drop below 5 mp things look like what you've found.

I think some of this shading issues is due to the nature of OMNI, I'm not seeing it the same with CONCEPT. I've used to think it was just me being a rookie painter getting too thick of a wet coat so that a seperation happend. But with concept and the same crappy painter no yellow seperation streaks (60080).

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Rod (NH)

07-23-2005 06:56:46




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to Jason(ma), 07-23-2005 04:20:08  
I have not noticed any streaking, at least at 5mp, my max. And none when they are reduced in size. I have noticed with the OMNI 60080 that there seems to be a yellow pigment that separates out rather rapidly. I have seen it in yellow streaks on the paint surface in the can if not frequently stirred. It's almost like a metallic paint where frequent stirring is essential for a uniform appearance. Perhaps that has something to do with it all. I need an excuse to try some Concept. Maybe this is the reason - if I can get myself to accept the large increase in cost.

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jason(ma)

07-23-2005 16:52:06




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to Rod (NH), 07-23-2005 06:56:46  
sorry , streaking in paint job, not camera



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CNKS

07-21-2005 18:30:00




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to Rod (NH), 07-21-2005 18:20:42  
I watch RFDTV, channel 379 on Direct TV, it's on Dish network too. The Farmalls on the tractor shows all have an orange tint, just like mine. If I adjust the color so that they are red, all the other colors are wrong. Of course my TV is much less accurate than your camera, and the worst possible place to get a correct color is a TV set.



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Rod (NH)

07-22-2005 18:12:26




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to CNKS, 07-21-2005 18:30:00  
I played around a little today with my camera. I am now thinking the changes in shade have little to do with the sun angle and more to do with the relatively narrower dynamic range of digital cameras. The area in the picture noted above had both bright sunlight and a large area of shade in the same frame. When the camera exposure control is in auto, the entire frame is averaged for the "best compromise" exposure. That leaves the shaded areas slightly underexposed and the bright sunlit areas slightly overexposed. This difference is exaggerated with digital cameras due to the characteristics of the sensors - or so I've read. The overexposed orange areas that were in the direct sunlight took on an exaggerated yellow cast - due to the overexposure. When the entire tractor was in the shaded area, the yellow cast disappeared since most of the frame was in the shade and the orange areas were much better represented by the average exposure. I tried taking the same picture today but with the camera in spot metering mode and spotted on an orange area that was in bright sunlight. That area came out correctly with no yellow cast. Of course all the shaded areas then wound up underexposed and the portions of the orange that were in the shade were darker than normal.

I now think if you want decent color shades from a digital camera, you should make sure the entire subject is in an area of reasonably uniform brightness and there are no obviously large dark areas in the frame to significantly influence the average exposure level. Or use a spot metering function on a specific area of interest and let the rest fall wherever it may. At least that's my current theory :o).

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scott#2

07-23-2005 07:29:26




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to Rod (NH), 07-22-2005 18:12:26  
The best photographers wait for the sun to get just where they want it. Most award winning shots (color) are taken just before or after sunrise and sunset. Rarely are photos taken at high noon or there abouts there just isnt any "dramatic lighting effects" taking place at those times. The light coming form the sun suffers through various refractions in the atmosphere before it reaches its subject and the refractive values vary greatly on any give day. Variables include smog, haze, virga, pollution, ozone layers you name it. All these variables cause a different bandwidth of light to strike the subject being shot and this alters the color hue, thats why most pro photographers carry a good selection of filters, uv, haze, skylight, polarizing and many, many more.

As far as exposures from cameras are concerned, you can make any color whatever you want whether its a digital camera or a film plane camera. When you shoot in segmented matrix mode, (anywhere from 4-16 light metering areas are taken into consideration by the camera) light values for the exposure are averaged over the entire sceen and wont always render the correct color. Most people shoot that way. When you use spot, your usually trying to capture an image where your subject is surrounded by dark or light areas, the background will either be under or over exposed in most cases. You can compensate for under/over exposure if you meter just off of the spot you want to shoot, hold that setting, then re compose and shoot (if your camera has that ability). You can do this in either of the exposure modes mentioned above. Some cameras have bracket metering, yet a 3rd metering method in between the two above.

Only the best digital cameras offer pixel by pixel averaging for light compensation and these units run anywhere from $2,000 - $10,000 (last time I looked) and still fall short in some of the color rendering areas in my opinion.

Even the low end digital cameras have settings available where you can select the type of light your shooting in. (changes the color saturation) but that is subject to each manufacturers ccd imager and their opinion of what the final color should look like.

Im looking forward to neaxt week.

scott#2

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Rod (NH)

07-23-2005 16:35:41




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to scott#2, 07-23-2005 07:29:26  
I agree. I used a 35mm SLR for many years before digital. I haven't used that in over 5 years now. It sits idle. The convenience of digital simply outweighs any downside for most non-professionals. Here are my recent test shots:
third party image
The bottom one has the exposure spotted from the shaded area to the left of the steering wheel - result = generally overexposed. The middle one was taken seconds later but with the exposure spotted from the bright area on the gas tank - result = generally underexposed. The top one is with the other two digitally combined (blended) in software and the overall brightness level adjusted. The top one appears much more natural overall, including the orange - more like what you actually see with your eyes. This is the only way I know of to best handle a situation where there are large differences in brightness in the same frame with a digital camera - at least a consumer one like I have. It helps to bring out some detail in the shadow areas but is kind of a pain to go through unless the photo is really important. The other (and best) way, is as you say - to wait for the right light , if you have that luxury. In this case it would probably be when the sun went behind a cloud and the picture frame was more consistently bright (or dark) throughout. I have read where most digital sensors have a brightness range sensitivity of about 5 F-stops equivalent. Film is supposedly around 8 stops and I believe the human eye is even greater but I haven't seen a similar numerical comparison.

Yes, I am also interested in hearing the results of your efforts with the OMNI 71310 and your supplier.

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scott#2

07-23-2005 18:43:21




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 Re: Lighting and Colors in reply to Rod (NH), 07-23-2005 16:35:41  
I have been shooting digital so long now that I am getting sick of it and want to go back to film. I even broke out the gear the other day and made some test shots basically just to hear the gear work. In my opinion, digital cameras are nice for quickie shots but they will make you lazy and forgetfull when it comes to shooting film. I really enjoy the challange of shooting film in difficult conditions. I took a trip to Egypt a few years back and was taking 90 sec to 3 minuite exposures, in the wind, at night of superimposed laser outines of the tajmahal projected on one side of the largest pyramid, Khufu in the Giza strip. It really is that large, 4 football fields will fit on one side. Took over 700 film pictures on that trip and probably only 40 are what I consider to be outstanding shots. Film will always rule for me but some of those new pro digital SLRs are getting pretty nice in the resolution, shutter speed and frames per second. I might just have to try one of those bad boys out soon.

scott#2

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