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Antique Tractor Paint and Bodywork

Original Paint process and priming

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TKN

07-29-2005 09:18:14




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I have noticed while striping down the paint on my B Farmall that there does not seem to have been any primer when it was first painted. Was that the standard process? I am using the CASEIH paint to repaint my tractor and the CASEIH parts guy tells me there is no need to prime.

In general is primer recommended for bare metal? or does it depend on the paint being used?




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BPNT

08-04-2005 21:45:30




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to TKN, 07-29-2005 09:18:14  
Regardless of what others tell you, the required undercoating is solely dependant upon the topcoat selected. For example, in PPG, ALK200 can be used successfully over clean, sanded steel where as the same steel would need primer to be topcoated with PPG Concept...



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CNKS

08-05-2005 05:56:27




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to BPNT, 08-04-2005 21:45:30  
Looking at the spec sheets for Alk and Aue, PPG does not specifically say that primer has to be used. It essentially says that it needs to be sanded and that for better results, chemically treated, I assume that means etched. It does, however, list recommended primers. One thing not mentioned, is that for a quality finish, you need to put a sandable surfacer or primer surfacer under the topcoat, the adhereance to bare metal of some of those is not too good, so epoxy should be used under them. Perhaps on cast coated with alkyd a primer is not necessary, but I imagine it is desirable. Some of the primers listed for Alk are epoxy primers, I did not look up all of them. One thing that I have noticed about tractor repaints -- I have chemically stripped a couple of fairly "decent" looking tractors that were likely painted with alkyd enamel, with no primer under the repaint, and no primer under the factory paint. The repaint strips very easily, the underlying factory paint gives much more resistance. So primer or not proper surface preparation is critical. As easy as epoxy primer is to use, I see no reason not to use it, no matter what goes over the top of it.

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Rod (NH)

08-05-2005 17:05:52




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to CNKS, 08-05-2005 05:56:27  
I don't think there is a surfacer type product in that line. At least I don't see one just by browsing the list of tech sheets. When you think about it, such a product would probably be a slow mover in the commercial/industrial markets. Manufacturing would use new sheet metal, probably chemically etched - so no sanding or bodywork needed, therefore no surfacer needed. Industrial products such as fire hydrants, valves, etc, if they painted at all by the OEM do not require (nor do they get) any type of mirror finish - not reasonable or practical. Most such things are painted (if at all) by the installing contractor or plant owner after installation - usually only to give some protection to the metal. A fine finish is not the goal. They certainly would not be messing around with a surfacer - the boss would blow a gasket. Even a primer might be omitted. Plus sanding, even to remove flash rusting would be considered a luxury and likely would be avoided - just slop the paint on. Same with most ironwork products, which usually come from the manufacturer with the cheapest possible paint and no primer. It's in the auto refinish industry where the surfacers become prominent simply because of the nature of the work and the need for a resulting smooth, mirror like finish. I doubt the auto OEMs have any need for a surfacer type product. Don't think there are any robotic sanders out there on the line working the surfacer :o).

I purchased a manual hydraulic crane for my flatbed trailer a couple of years ago. Came painted red. Not a great finish, but at least it was protected to some extent. No primer. You could tell where scratches caused by handling went to the bare metal. Six months in the sunlight it was no longer red but flat pink. I'm not surprised. I didn't expect a high quality finish on an inexpensive crane. Likely a cheap alkyd. Maybe the manufacturing industry is moving up to a better product in the modified alkyds that are now available, I don't know. Some are using powder coatings more also. The finish on my trailer is holding up pretty well - but it's only three years old. I don't know what kind of paint it is. It's black and looks fairly decent. I wouldn't call it automotive quality. Course it was never intended or expected to be.

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CNKS

08-05-2005 17:33:59




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to Rod (NH), 08-05-2005 17:05:52  
I bought a car trailer (for tractors) a couple of months ago -- no primer and rust is begining to show along the welded seams--this one has an all steel bed, my guess it is alkyd enamel. I can't imagine sandblasting and painting the whole thing in a couple of years when the paint has gone south, oh well, it's only a trailer. You are correct about your fireplug, etc statement in relation to the industrial paints, I really had not thought about it. I suppose the same surfacers used in the Omni system would work. I am curious about how the acrylic modified and urethane modified paints will hold up, but as slow as I am with the prep process, I doubt if I ever find out--I have little interest in comparing products, I would rather do it right the first time. I tend to look at industrial paints as durable, but not really suited for automotive application. I sometimes wish I was a paint chemist so I could figure all this stuff out. Until someone convinces me otherwise, I think I'll stick with acrylic urethane.

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CNKS

07-29-2005 16:44:00




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to TKN, 07-29-2005 09:18:14  
Case-IH sells primer to use with its paint, although it might not be as critical for their alkyd paint as for the newer types. You should use it, as people behind the counter, even the ones that sell automotive paint are sometimes not very knowledgable (that is not an all-inclusive statement). But, the best primer you can use is epoxy, it provides excellent adhesion for most any topcoat--it also costs more than the 2150 topcoat, not to mention the CIH primer.

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RustyFarmall

07-29-2005 13:13:25




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to TKN, 07-29-2005 09:18:14  
You are correct, International Harvester did not use primer, it simply would have added too much to the cost of the tractor or other implement, in fact, very few farm equipment mfgrs. used primer, for the same reason. Your parts man is also correct, you do not need primer to get the IH2150 to adhere. The exception would be if the sheet metal is pitted or otherwise rough, then you might want to use some type of primer-filler just to smooth it out before you paint.

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gary case

08-01-2005 10:33:55




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to RustyFarmall, 07-29-2005 13:13:25  
what about using a urathane primer on the implement paint being (alkyd enamel)



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CNKS

08-01-2005 18:34:43




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to gary case, 08-01-2005 10:33:55  
I assume you mean under the alkyd enamel -- if the instructions say you can, yes. Not all urethane "primers" are the same. There are primers, primer surfacers, and surfacers. For some brands of pure surfacers, you need to etch prime and sand. It is simpler to use epoxy primer, and put the sandable urethane primer, primer surfacer, or surfacer over it. You don't sand the epoxy primer. The cast needs only the epoxy--the surfacer is for the sheet metal and is sanded. Again epoxy is the best primer for bare metal, it can also act as sealer for old surfaces. Unlike ordinary primers it is water proof. The only disadvantage is that there is usually a 3-7 day window, depending on the brand and quality, that it has to be topcoated. If you miss the window it has to be at least scuffed, then reapplied.

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CNKS

08-01-2005 18:44:38




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 Re: Original Paint process and priming in reply to CNKS, 08-01-2005 18:34:43  
One caution -- it is best to use primers, surfacers, hardeners, reducers, and topcoats from the same company, and preferably from the same line of paint from the same company. If you mix brands, there is the possibility of incompatibility resulting in lifting of the topcoat--in most cases this is not likely, but there are no guarantees. Most brands of alkyd enamel will have rather incomplete instructions on what is best to use, unlike the more expensive paints that give exact, can't go wrong instructions. Chances are there will be only one recommended primer, not necessarily because another won't work, but because they don't manufacture others. With better paints, there are more choices. I know nothing about the paint you intend to use, just pay attention to the instructions.

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