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OK I'll try again

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SCOTT#2

07-30-2005 15:00:12




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I posted 4 different pics in bits and pieces of PPG red in 4 different lighting conditions. The one below is in morning sun, but look at the rest of them.

scott#2

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scott#2

07-30-2005 18:06:58




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to SCOTT#2, 07-30-2005 15:00:12  
I was just sitting here at the rolltop, talking religion with a friend and gazing at the 2 pieces on the desk. I do see a difference, just not a substantial difference as one would expect from leaving 7 parts orange out. All toners were mixed for 12 miniutes before pouring, I timed it. As I sit here looking at them I believe I will go back for more samples and have them leave 7 parts orange out and put 3 or 4 parts red in and the rest clear and 7 parts red in the other mix. In real life the triangle looks real close and I think 7 parts red might not look right, that red toner has kind of a violet hue to it but that might be a good thing, who knows.

Cameras and colors just dont play fair with each other, no matter what you do. I cant even see a difference in the pics posted but I know its there because cause Im looking at em.

Your are right CNKS the well mixed 71310 does have a orange tint in it no matter what light its in. I guess its just a bad mix formula from ours and perhaps some others points of view. I think you would probably be happy with the 7 parts less orange. It looks better and better to me all the time, but I think I can improve on it a little more. Let me know if you want some samples.

That pink in some of the pice was the camera lying, who knows where that came from. Looking at it again, I think that was the skys reflection through the trees.

Thanks for grouping the pictures up Rod, I dont have the capability to do that, sure made it easier.

Back for another sample.

Thank you very much,

scott#2

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Rod (NH)

07-30-2005 19:48:46




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to scott#2, 07-30-2005 18:06:58  
Scott,

I thought of you and CN when I went to a local tractor show this morning. Lots of Farmalls there. I took this picture showing both a newly painted one and an original (?) faded one in the same frame:

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On the nice looking one above I superimposed the same crop from your sunlight photo. Can you find it? Considering different cameras, it matches pretty good, I think. I have no idea what paint was used on the nice one. The vast majority of Farmalls there all looked pretty much the same - at least all the newly painted ones. I couldn't detect really any difference in color just walking around. If you have 10 ACs in a show, you can bet on about five different shades of orange - some subtle differences, some not :o).

Yes, looking at things again I believe the pink areas do represent a sky reflection.

I can't remember, but have you done a comparison spray out with the 2150? Are you actually comparing the OMNI sprayouts to some other fresh sample that you know is what you want when you say the 71310 has too much orange? I guess what I am getting at is do you know what your baseline for acceptance is? Since you are particular on shade, I'd also suggest a sprayout with Concept unless you are absolutely wedded to OMNI for some reason. And there really is no reason to be other than cost. In the end it's what ever pleases you, however.

Putting pics in a post is easy if you use a little html coding and get the picture location linked properly. Use [img src="xxx"] where xxx is the actual URL location of the picture but replace [ with< a rel="nofollow"nd ] with > to make it show up in your post. It is important that xxx be the location of the picture itself and not the location of the page it is on. A typical xxx would be similar to:

http://www.mypictures.com/tractors/farmall.jpg

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scott#2

07-31-2005 05:30:52




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to Rod (NH), 07-30-2005 19:48:46  
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I cant find the color sample that you inserted. I did all kinds of stuff with the pic and still couldnt find it. The side of your H pic looks right, while the front looks orange to me. I posted a pic of a friends of Hugh's that sent me a pic of a fast hitch detail. You can see the difference the flash makes here. Red in some areas, orange in others.

I only have one IH dealer around here and they dont stock 2150, Im basically going on what my eyes see and like. I am staying with Omni because of cost and I already have all the Omni primer and stuff. Plus they dont even mix Concept there, they have to order it from another location. Who knows how that would turn out. At least I have some control over the Omni.

Im going on with the experiment to see if I can improve the color just a smidge more ( if the PPG guys will tolerate me again). They pour from gallon cans and mix in quarts. After getting 4 quarts I think Ill pour them all in a gallon can and spray from there. Looking at the one with 7 parts less orange again here, it does look pretty good to me.

Thank You,

scott#2

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CNKS

07-31-2005 17:09:56




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to scott#2, 07-31-2005 05:30:52  
In spite of my criticism of 2150, if you are uncomfortable with Omni, and don't want to move up to Concept (it is beyond belief that your dealer does not mix it), then 2150 might be a consideration. It is better than the old fade in a month alkyd enamel, it can be waxed to bring out the color, much as the older cars could be waxed. Used with hardener you may well be satisfied. My criticism of it was that there are better products out there, particularly if you put weeks or months into the preparation. You can probably use your Omni primers and surfacers under it. If I were going to use it that is the way I would handle it. Your CIH dealer can order it, with probably a freight charge added it to it.

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Rod (NH)

07-31-2005 15:38:21




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to scott#2, 07-31-2005 05:30:52  
Scott,

You're linking to the entire page that the picture is on, not just the picture itself. That will not work. You need to link to the actual picture, not the page, if you want the picture to show up right in your post.

Once you are viewing a page with the picture showing on it in one of the photo galleries, right click on the picture itself and select "properties" from the list that pops up. You will now have a window that has a line item titled "Address (URL)". It will begin with>Link

Make sure you use the preview just prior to final posting to see how it's going to come out. If it doesn't show in the preview, it won't show after you post it. From the preview screen you can back up and make any modifications you want until you get everything correct. Only then do you hit the final "Post Messsage" button. This is how it works with WIN98SE. Newer versions may be a little different but should follow the same basic process.

The spot that I superimposed is located on the top of the radiator shroud on the right hand side (looking at it). It is difficult to make out unless you know it's there, since it matches pretty well. The spot is a square that is only slightly smaller than the IH emblem, which is down a bit and to the left of the spot.

What you see with your eyes is more uniform in tint between the sunlit and shady areas than what the photo indicates, just like your flash sample. As I say, I don't know what paint was used on that H. It could have been the 71310 for all I know. That could account for the good match with your sample at that point. However, most all the Farmalls I saw were like that one. They also looked a lot like Cliff's 1086 in the thread below - at least to my eyes. But - and it's a big but - your sunlit shot of 71310 (full formula) is quite a bit more orange than Cliff's 71310 for some reason. They both are in direct sunlight. I don't know. It may have something to do with how different cameras see shades of red. Mine's a Sony that is known for producing colors that are brighter and more saturated than normal, especially reds. Some other brands have a more subdued and perhaps more natural color representation. The only other thing I can think of that might explain the difference is that Cliff probably shot three coats over a primer. You may have only shot one coat over no primer since you were just checking color. That might have some bearing on how they both appear since OMNI doesn't cover quite as well per coat as the premium paints. If it's not in the cameras and not in the application, then I think it has to be somewhere in the mixing arena. I think Cliff said his jobber had a relatively large business throughput. I get the feeling that your jobber does not. That could have some effect although I don't think it should. CN makes a good point about your jobber's past tint stirring practice. If he hasn't been careful with stirring in the past and is using partially used cans of tints, then all the forced stirring under your observation will not make the tints what they are supposed to be - unless each of the used tints start out with fresh, full cans so you know you are starting off with known products. OMNI 71310 should have the exact same formula using the exact same tints no matter where you get it mixed. And it should end up looking the same after it's applied. Here's a crop from Cliff's 1086 (door panel) superimposed on both of the samples in your sunlit shot. There's obviously a very significant difference - the question is why?:
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If you stay with your current supplier, I suggest you finally purchase more than you think you will ever use, once you find a shade you like. If CN's thought is true, you'll never be able to get such a mix faithfully reproduced anywhere, even using your own customized formula, since the ingredients themselves will have been off-spec.

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scott#2

07-31-2005 16:13:32




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to Rod (NH), 07-31-2005 15:38:21  
Now I know what CNKS meanS, if they arent stirring the cans all along as there emptied, none of the tints are correct to begin with. My supplier here, as in many services in this area, leaves alot to be desired when it comes to paying attention to details. I am sick of it, no one takes pride in their job or work anymore and it winds up sucking the life out of me on a daily basis, not just this paint issue but just about everything in this area. I dont know what to do now, all this sample crap has been for the birds. I bet if I were a fly on the wall, that stir rack would see very little use.

Thanks for the picture advice Rod, I will refer back to it often. Im not too good with this computer stuff as it is and am surprised I haver been able to do what I have.

scott#2

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CNKS

07-30-2005 19:58:36




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to Rod (NH), 07-30-2005 19:48:46  
The Super H is the same as mine -- the sheet metal color is darker, if you look at the front bolster, just under the grille, that is about the orange color we are talking about -- don't know how it looks in person, though.



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Rod (NH)

07-30-2005 21:03:22




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to CNKS, 07-30-2005 19:58:36  
I think it's how the digital camera sensor depicts varying degrees of brightness of the same color. The sunlit areas show as a different shade of color as compared with the shaded areas. The color in the bright and shaded areas is much more uniform with your eyes than is shown in the photo. Going on memory for that tractor, I would say the color was uniform and more like how the H in the super H decal is represented in the photo - i.e. darker (and less orange) than suggested by the grill and bolster. Actually, all the Farmalls I saw today were much more like what Scott's incandescent photo shows for a color. At least that is how I recall them looking to my eyes, even in bright sunlight.

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CNKS

07-30-2005 19:29:04




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to scott#2, 07-30-2005 18:06:58  
After seeing and reading about Cliff Neubauer's two tractors painted with 71310 along with the present appearance of my C, my opinion (unproven) is with well mixed toners, along with accurate measurement that the "standard" PPG Omni formula is good enough -- not saying that you won't get a better color by experimentation. The cast on my C at first looked orange, the sheet metal only slightly orange, the red showed more with time (to my eyes, I have no explanation--I have heard this before, also). At the present time, if I did not know it had an orange tint, I might not notice it. The toners and/or mixing for my Super H are obviously wrong, orange from the start, no change with time. As to the toners, you have seen how they are packaged, I haven't. If they are in quart cans or whatever, and your dealer mixed a partially used can that had previously been unmixed and then poured out of, then that toner is going to be wrong. On the other hand if the toners were mixed regularly as on the picture of the rack in one of the other threads, and then used, the color should be accurate. However, what you see at first may not be what you get later, due to the perceived (to my eyes) color change. With a good jobber, that sells a lot of Omni daily, with an good employee that mixes all the paint, the color should be reproductible, within the limits of the paint quality itself. At the present time, I have serious doubts about whether I'm going to paint my 460 with Omni, at least from my current dealer. I am considering mail order, under the assumption that the mail order people sell a lot of paint, and know what they are doing--but I have no assurance of that either. Or I might bite several bullets, use Concept, and insist that for close to $300 a gallon, he better do it right. Due to its chemistry I have no desire to use Case-IH 2150, although the actual color may be as close as you can get. BUT, good luck with the rest of your experiment, if you get what you consider to be the right color, I might purchase a quart using your formula, and paint some part of my tractor that will be hidden from view (to avoid a 2-tone tractor) and see how it looks. If satisfactory, I will then have the rest mixed, and hope it can be done twice in a row.

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BPNT

08-04-2005 20:10:51




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to CNKS, 07-30-2005 19:29:04  
It makes me very sad to hear complaints about such a simple problem as stirring the paint from these forums. Stick with PPG 'platinum' distributors rather than fly-by-night companies who sell PPG alongside Dupont,etc. If your PPG distributor cannot replicate colors via a formula, please indicate their name here as to save others the trouble. PPG formulas are accurate to 1/10th of 1 gram in most cases (about 2 drops of your average color!) and should be replicable by any distributor with half a brain. If not, discontinue patronizing the place!

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Rod (NH)

07-30-2005 16:34:20




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to SCOTT#2, 07-30-2005 15:00:12  
Scott,

Here they all are for comparison. I really can't see any significant difference between the one with 7 parts orange left out (triangular piece) and the other one in any shots. I do see a difference in the morning sunlight shot with what appears to be a variation from left to right on the rectangular piece for some reason - it seems more "pinkish" on the right.

Morning Sun
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Cool White Fluorescent
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Incandescent
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Afternoon Shade
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At first I had thought there was a little difference between the two in the morning sunlight shot. However, I tried superimposing a cropped section of the rectangular piece (from the left) on top of the triangular piece as shown here. No other changes:
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I really can't see any difference here, even with the 7 parts orange missing from one of 'em.

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CNKS

07-30-2005 16:17:55




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to SCOTT#2, 07-30-2005 15:00:12  
Perhaps part of the triangle is darker, but hard to tell. Both are will fully mixed toners, prior to mixing the actual paint?



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CNKS

07-30-2005 16:35:38




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 Re: OK I'll try again in reply to CNKS, 07-30-2005 16:17:55  
I looked at all 4 in parts and pieces -- my opinion, numbered from top to bottom, 1-4: 1. Rectangle has slightly more orange, but if I did not know they were different colors, I would call them both the same, triangle is more pink than the rectangle, 2. No difference 3. The triangle actually looks lighter to me. 4. Fluoresent is the lighting that will highlight the orange -- under my lights it will really jump out, as it does in yours, However, the rectangle looks slightly more orange to me, the opposite of your intended result. If I could see them in person, results would be different--

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