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want to build a paint booth

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DL

11-24-2005 19:41:08




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I hope someone can help... I have no intention of painting for a living so I can't justify buying a ready made booth, but have a couple of tractors and various farm equipment in dire need of paint. I think I have the metal prep side under control and own an HVLP gun/turbine... just need some place to work! My plan is to build a dedicated building (could form ducting in the poured floor for down draft??)... I can finish the interior walls and install lighting, but have absolutely no idea what equipment I need for exhaust fan, filters, etc. I hope to be able to build something affordable and workable, without building a "bomb". TIA for your help!
Regards, DL

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BobinKY

12-02-2005 06:11:41




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to DL, 11-24-2005 19:41:08  
I have read all of the technical advise on here and I keep wondering, why can't a guy just get an old tractor trailer box and set it up away from other structures but close enough to get ducted heat and electricity into it. I have contemplated this idea for a long time but have not yet done it. I can get old trailers for real cheap. I can duct some heat into the front of the trailer and put in a belt-driven house fan. I am thinking about cutting trap doors at the rear of the trailer and covering with furnace filters. The trap doors can be closed when I want to retain heat while not painting. In my mind, this type of arrangement would serve double duty as a sandblast box and a paint booth. We hose out the booth before painting anyway, so what would this hurt. I have had this idea for a long time but have not had the time to pursue it yet. I would like to hear what other think about this idea for an occassional sandblast and painting booth.

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Seth_ia

11-26-2005 20:02:37




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to DL, 11-24-2005 19:41:08  
My friend is currently in the middle of trying to set up a shop for painting at his place. He is going to put a wood burning furnace in a special concrete building near the shop and duct the heat into shop. There will be no cold air return. He is going to atempt take cold 20 degree air and warm it up to 70 degrees and pipe it into the shop. He is plaining to only curtain off part of the shop while painting. He is going to install a very large belt drive fan. The fan is VERY large. My concern is not so much about keeping the air fresh enough and at an acceptable concentration, but rather being able keep the air in the building warm enough too paint. A 3ft fan turning at say 1000 rpm will move a lot of air, but can a 200,000 btu furnace even come close to the removal rate. I am seriously doubting it. Insurance is a concern, but hopefully since the shop is not dedicated to painting that hopefully won't be a problem:)

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CNKS

11-27-2005 06:57:06




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to Seth_ia, 11-26-2005 20:02:37  
Rod gave the calculations --- but basically there is no way to paint for more than a few minutes and keep the inside temperature at 70 degrees, with any kind of a conventional shop heating system. For that you need to heat the air before it enters the shop with a $$$$$ body shop heater. Perhaps if he has a huge furnace, is the only way to make it work. I suggest that your friend figure how many btu's he has for input and compare that with the volume of air that will leave the building with the fan running. My belief is it won't work. One alternative is to get a variable speed fan and try to strike some compromise between removing all the overspray vs removing just enough so that the temperature remains high enough to paint for a significant amount of time. The fans I refer to in my other post in this thread are 2-16 inch variable speed fans. These barely give the 100 ft/min air movement that Rod refers to when runnning wide open. I have forgotten the calculations I made a year or so ago, but I believe they can completely evacuate my 30x30 work area in a couple of minutes. Your fan will do that much faster.

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Rod (NH)

11-26-2005 20:58:27




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to Seth_ia, 11-26-2005 20:02:37  
Seth,

If you know the approximate cubic feet per minute (CFM) of air flow and the temperature rise in deg F that you want to achieve, the heat required in btu per hour (BTUH) to heat the incoming air is obtained by the following formula:

BTUH = 1.08 x CFM x Temperature Rise

Rearranging:

CFM = BTUH / (1.08 x Temp Rise)

For example, in the case you mention:

CFM = 200,000 /(1.08 x 50) = 3,700 CFM

It's hard to say without specific fan data but I would guess that a 36" propeller fan could move significantly more than that. You friend should be able to get some basic CFM ratings for the fan he is considering from the manufacturer.

Rod

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CNKS

11-27-2005 09:20:20




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to Rod (NH), 11-26-2005 20:58:27  
The opening of my booth is 53.77 sq ft, meaning in order to get 100 ft/min air flow, I need a fan that will move 5377 CFM, which I have. My work area that contains the booth is about 11000 cu ft; 11000/5377 = 2.04 minutes, meaning I get a complete air change every 2.04 minutes. BTU/hr = 1.08 x 5377 x 50 = 290358 BTU. That's per hour, right? -- I need that much in two minutes. My furnace is only 50000 BTU. If my calculations are right, an individual like me cannot paint when it is anywhere near cold outside, except for only a few minutes at a time. (I knew that when I built it).

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Rod (NH)

11-27-2005 13:02:41




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to CNKS, 11-27-2005 09:20:20  
Yes, That's per hour. No, you won't have to supply 290,000+ BTU in 2 minutes. You'll have to provide that much per hour just to heat the makeup air. It's important to note that heating the makeup air is in addition to the normal amount of heat that is required to heat the surrounding enclosed area when the fan(s) is turned off - e.g. the normal heat loss through walls, etc. As an example, lets say that your existing 50 KBTU (that's per hour too, btw) is not marginal at 20 deg F outside ambient air and that your normal heating requirement is about 25 KBTU per hour without any exhaust fan operation. In other words, your heating unit would normally run about 50% of the time when the temp outside is 20. That leaves you with about 25 KBTU reserve for faster pickup after cooldown or colder outside air temps when maintaining 70 deg inside your shop. It also leaves you with about 25 KBTU available (at 20 outside) to heat makeup air needed when the exhaust fan is running. At 5377 cfm exhaust, you need the 290,000 BTU per hour for this duty. You only have available about 25,000, even when your heating unit is running continuously. So, no, you will not be able to maintain 70 inside when your exhaust is in operation under your scenario, since you would need over 10 times the amount of heat that you have. That's on essentially a continuous operating basis - say for a full hour. If you operated the fan only a few minutes out of every hour, your situation would be much better.

Theoretically, I suppose if you operated the fan for no more than 6 minutes out of every hour, you could make out OK under this scenario with your heating unit running continuously. Actually, I think that's doable too. You can get a lot painted in six minutes of actual spray time. Turn the fan on and spray the first coat. Turn the fan off during the intercoat period, then turn it back on for the next coat and so on. If you get anywhere near the 100 FPM cross sectional air velocity, you'll find that the overspray is readily removed right away. The part will give off some fumes for a while that will not be removed if the fan is off, but that should not be a problem with your fresh air respirator - just keep it on. I think you said they were variable speed fans you had. You could also cut back on the speed after the actual spraying is done. You'll have to experiment some to see how much you can get away with without the shop temperature dropping too low.

Think of the makeup air as excessive infiltration. That's really all it is. Depending on how tight your existing shop is, you may not be able to achieve the approx 5400 cfm that your fans are rated at. The flow of all fans is very dependant on whatever restrictions may exist on both the the suction and discharge sides. If you shop is realtively tight, that presents a restriction on the suction side and your fan flow can be diminished from the rating point. The rating point will be at some static pressure. That is usually not very high - something like 1/4" of water for example. You may find that you can increase your fan flow (if it seems low) by leaving a window open during operation. That will reduce the flow restriction caused by tight construction.

Dedicated makeup air heaters would be a coil type of unit that, for example, sits in an open window (or ductwork to the outside) to prevent cold drafts in the area of the building where the outside air is introduced.

Not sure if this is clear or not. I do tend to ramble at times as a thought occurs.

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CNKS

11-27-2005 14:44:09




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to Rod (NH), 11-27-2005 13:02:41  
It's clear enough for me, I did not know how to calculate the required BTU until I saw your post, I was hoping I didn't need 290000 BTU everytime the air changed -- I know my heat is insufficient, and if I can run the fans 6 minutes at a time, that will be enough. I don't need to raise it 50 degrees either. Maybe 1st thing in the morning, but it is apt to be 50 degrees by afternoon. I paid more for variable speed because I imagine I can get by with, say, 50 ft/mintue instead of 100, and my intention was to be able to aerate while using other non-paint solvents. They definitely move air doing that. My shop is well insulated, except for the 10 foot sliding door I have, thus the furnace runs at least half the time if it is very cold and cloudy. I don't have a way of sealing around the door, at least not on a permanent basis. At any rate those fans pull air pretty good, and I'm going to at least open a door or something part way, I think. I have also thought about putting some sort of heater in a window, but doubt if it will do much good, since I need so many BTU.

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CNKS

11-25-2005 18:17:53




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to DL, 11-24-2005 19:41:08  
It is not possible to get a homemade booth past the fire marshall, city/county housing inspector or anyone else. No insurance company will cover it, not because of replacement, but in case someone is injured or killed, ie lawsuits. If you have a fire and the insurance company finds out what caused it, they can cancel ALL your property insurance. Bodyshops cover theirs with companies that specialize in such things, they won't cover me or you. Not saying you can't do it, just remember you are entirely on your own.

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Rod (NH)

11-25-2005 12:25:29




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to DL, 11-24-2005 19:41:08  
Hi DL,

That's a tall order. I don't want to discourage you but will provide some of my thoughts for your consideration:

1. The "standard" for paint spray booth ventilation is to have an average 100 fpm air velocity across the face of a cross draft booth or across the floor area of a down draft booth. To put this in perspective, think of a cross draft booth that is 8ft high x 10 ft wide x 24ft long. The cross sectional area is 80 sf and the volume is 1920cf. To obtain an average 100fpm air flow would require a fan volume of 8000 cfm. That's a lot of air.

2. If you plan on doing painting in such a booth during the winter, you will need to provide a provision for heating the incoming air. Assuming an outside temperature of 20degF and a flow of 8000 cfm, that equates to a heating rate of 432,000 btuh that would have to be supplied to the incoming air in order to maintain a booth temperature of 70 degF. That's a lot of heat. Keep in mind that a flow of 8000 cfm across that volume is the equivalent to 250 air changes per hour. That's an awful lot.

3. A "standard" paint spray booth will have all explosion proof lighting and fixtures, including an explosion proof fan if the fan is in the air stream. It will be constructed of fire resistant materials and have an installed fire suppression system, such as automatic sprinklers. Do you need all this? I don't know. A lot depends on 1) what your local building codes may require, 2) your insurance company, 3) the attitude of any "nosey neighbors", 4) whatever safety risk you are willing to bear and 5) whatever you wish to avoid telling prople that could cause a problem for you. It may also depend on whatever local environmental regulations may exist that could be applied to individual operations.

4. The primary safety risk, in my opinion, is explosion due to flammable materials (solvents) being atomized in the air and the possibility of a spark, no matter how remote, even from static electricity, of causing a problem. That's assuming your breathing system consists of a fresh-air-supplied respirator in the first instance. I believe the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) has concluded that in order to be "safe" from explosion, the air concentration in the booth must be kept below about 25% of the lower explosive limit of the solvents being sprayed. They (NFPA) have also concluded that a ventilation rate as noted above (100 fpm across the section) will be sufficient to be assured of safety from an explosion standpoint - for all reasonable rates of solvent evaporation. However, that being said, such a determination is not considered sufficient to eliminate the need for the explosion proof character of all the electrical components. As with all fire/explosion protection standards, there never is a reliance on a single level of protection. There are just too many unforseen circumstances and the consequences of a failure are too great.

5. That said, I have painted a few cars in the past in my garage/workshop using plastic film on the ceiling and sides to control the overspray, two 20" cheap window fans in the garage door, and a furnace filter in the window opposite the door. No explosion proof anything and no fire protection except for your standard fire extinguisher. This is really doing it on the cheap and I really cannot recommend it to anyone. I stopped the practice altogether after seeing all the overspray splatted over the open windings in the window fans and in the open motor on my compressor. To me, doing it that way was too great a risk to just keep doing it. Others seem to do similar things and get away with it. I haven't heard of any DIY garage being blown up because of paint spraying. But I do think it is a risk, considering the "official" standards for an "approved" spray booth. What little painting I have done in recent years, I have done completely outside. You'll have to be the judge of how you wish to continue.

6. The NFPA standards for such facilties are not available on-line without payment ($$$) but there are also OSHA federal requirements for "approvable" paint spray booths that are available. I probably can link to them if you want to study the matter a little more.

7. You might also want to read the thread down below (my original post titled "Ominous Sign") concerning possible future EPA regulations regarding the sale of automotive paint products. It appears that consideration is being given (by the EPA) of restricting the sale of auto paint products to only "certified" individuals that use "proper" facilities. The product labels already say "For Professional Use only...Not For Sale To The General Public" and have for a long time. A Google search on "epa paint sales", without the quotes, will yield some discussion on that matter. Whether such hard restrictions will ever come about is unknown at this time but is something to think about. It certainly happened with R12 some years ago.

third party image Rod

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DL

11-25-2005 18:34:17




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to Rod (NH), 11-25-2005 12:25:29  
Rod, I appreciate your thoughts and certainly respect your opinion. Undoubtedly, this topic appears on this forum repeatedly... I did a quick search before posting & didn't find anything, so went boldly ahead with my question. I apologize if this is the bazillionth time you've answered it. And now, for a little background... My wife and I live in Wyoming... known far and wide for our WIND. I'm definitely used to it... no big deal, just have to build things a little stronger to withstand the constant torture. The real problem is, after I get something cleaned up & ready to paint, the "breeze" normally kicks in and blows a fine layer of dirt over everything... definitely not conducive to even a mediocre paint job! My thought is to (obviously oversimplified) build a pole building somewhere around 16' x 24', finish & paint the inside (smooth walls... can be cleaned or repainted when overspray builds up), recess laminated glass into the walls and ceiling (fluorescent lighting would be installed behind sealed glass panels... hopefully isolating them from the air inside the "booth") and create some sort of ventilation system... preferably fire-proof! I wouldn't plan on painting in the dead of winter (can get 30 - 40 below zero here!), rather, just need some area that is somewhat sheltered during nice weather. As far as air changes in the booth... I would definitely plan on using a fresh air breathing system... just need to ventilate enough to produce a good paint job. Neighbors aren't a real problem either... we have enough acreage so that our nearest neighbor (downwind) is about 3/4 mile away...with a good blow, even the odor will be dispersed in that distance! As I mentioned in my original post, I don't plan on making a living at this... just enjoy doing a few things for myself and appreciate having a place to work. I seem to recall a post some time ago about using window fans for ventilation... I definitely won't go down that path! At the other end of the spectrum... my friend & I just got back from the SEMA show in 'Vegas (Hot Rod industry)... saw a killer paint booth there for a mere 50 K!!! Definitely can't afford that! What I was hoping to find was a lead on some fans (with explosion-proof motors) and some filters to put something togther myself... spent a considerable amount of time on Google a couple days ago and only found dead-ends... either I'm nor searching correctly or the industry doesn't want to sell fans... they only want to sell high-dollar paint booths! I guess my biggest problem with that is having to pay someone lots of money to do work for me that I can easily do for myself. As far as the certification... the "best" local supplier recently installed a spray booth in their store to "train" folks to use their products. They are essentially a friendly bunch... I've considered, and probably will attend their "training"... figured I could learn a thing or two (actually I have LOTS to learn!), but was fully aware of where this was probably leading. Damn gubment, anyways! (I'm just glad we don't get ALL the gubment we PAY for!!!) Well Rod, I've taken enough of your time... as I mentioned before I appreciate your opinion... you're one of the "regulars" that keep me coming back! Best Regards, DL

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CNKS

11-26-2005 18:03:00




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to DL, 11-25-2005 18:34:17  
I built a walk-in paint booth (about 10X12x8 high). I have not used it yet, thus I am still alive. The booth is inside my 30x30 work area -- the fans I used are in the link. These are true explosion proof fans. In addition all of my wiring inside the booth is in 1/2 inch black pipe, and bolts to the sealed "junction box" that comes mounted on the fan. The motors are completely sealed with very thick housings, the blades themselves are a plastic type material that will not spark. Thus any possible spark inside the booth will not be caused by the fan or wiring. The fans I used are variable speed. They are expensive. My lights are not explosion proof, but are recessed in the ceiling of the booth and mounted and sealed (I hope) over glass panels. The fans are not the ones that would be in a body shop. I believe they use "tubeaxial" fans or something like that, that are belt driven with the motor out of the path of the fumes. I considered everything I mentioned in my first post, and also what Rod told me when I was planning this (same thing he told you) but decided to do it any way. You can probably buy a ready made walk-in booth for not much more than I spent for materials. This booth will not hold a whole tractor. However, painting the chassis is the easiest and fastest part of the process, even outside the booth, I can probably exhaust most of the fumes for that short painting process. I do not have heated incoming air, and do not know how this thing will work in the winter. I may have to paint, exhaust the fumes and reheat, or I may paint until my thermometer says not to, and then reheat. I do not know if I can run my gas overhead heater while painting (it is NOT in the booth!!)-- even if I can it will not keep the cold incoming air heated. It will be best suited for warm weather, however it's going to get tested this winter. I will probably be greatly limited on what I can do at one time.

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Rod (NH)

11-26-2005 15:32:12




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 Re: want to build a paint booth in reply to DL, 11-25-2005 18:34:17  
I certainly can understand your situation. You might want to investigate a "whole house fan". They are regular propeller type fans and are usually belt driven. I have seen them in Home Depot for a few hundred dollars. Try a Google search. They're not explosion proof but if you set them up to blow in rather than exhaust out, they will be out of the contaminated air stream. You could set the fan at one end of your booth (opposite your access door) and just leave the door open for an exhaust path. Of course you would want to orientate the building such that the prevailing winds would not be into the open door. Those types of fans, say a 36" size, can move a lot of air but are not intended to be ducted or operate against any restrictions. You probably could come up with some type of filter bank that uses standard (2'x2'?) furnace filters set up on the suction side of the fan to prevent any ambient dust, bugs, etc from being introduced into your painting area. You would want to use a number of them to give a relatively large area so as not to introduce any significant pressure drop on the suction side of the fan. It would not be for cold weather operation, obviously.

Just some thoughts I had on how I might approach it if there were no concerns about insurance, nosey neighbors and the local building inspector.

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