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What do you call factory tires?

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burns

05-16-2001 19:50:27

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A post below mentioned "stock" pulls but at the same time not allowing a factory equipped tire. When you folks attend a pull that has a rule regarding tires, does the rule say anything about normal factory tires or "factory option" tires. A farmer could of ordered a Deere with rice tires that are far wider (less diameter) that a normal factory equipped tire. I know that many other brands had similar setups. I guess my question is Do you folks feel that someone regardless of brand should be able to enter a tractor that has a bigger "factory option" tire in the stock or div I classes. I don't. Last summer I got into a friendly arguement with a guy pulling a Cockshutt equipped with huge 23 degree tires widened out 18-20" on the rim. I didn't feel he should be in the stock class but was more than welcome to come pull in the open class. He said no that he had every right to be in the stock class because he had "documentation in his truck" that his tractor could have been purchased from the factory with wider rice tires. Another puller asked to see the documentation that showed 23 degree bars on rice tires and where in his documentation showed a welded/widened rim. I guess he left and never pulled.

Our iron

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missery

05-20-2001 05:58:55

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Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-16-2001 19:50:27

all of our tractors pull with the stock or opption tire that came on the tractir. my dad's 770 has 13.6 / 38's . my 66 has 11.2 / 38's. both of these tires are 4 ply's. the club that we pull in is concidered antquie stock. hey pete, the only massey that pulled in our club is a 98. didn't he cry when that 770 beat him. hehehehee.

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Allen P.

05-18-2001 05:09:03

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Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-16-2001 19:50:27

Burns, I think stock class pullers should be allowed to run factory rubber. I don't think they should be allowed to run a cut tire, front or even top and back of the bar only.

You didn't get cut tires from the factory and you will not find anyone with any sense taking a grinding wheel to tires on a tractor that is used in the field. I don't have a problem with restricting tire size or allowing cut tires on a modified tractor.

There has to be a class for the locals to hook and be competitive. Trying to get people to change wheels and tires just to pull in a stock class doesn't cut it. Many tractors (even the Deeres) have models that came with larger tires.

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Greg H.

05-17-2001 06:18:16

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Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-16-2001 19:50:27

Burns the pulls I attend have tire rules for the classes as a whole, not for individual tractor models. In the light classes, it seems they allow a couple size set up, being allowed to pull 15.5x38 from 5000 and 6000 pound class. 7500 through 10000 you are allowed up to 18.4x38's. are those sizes stock for the stock motored tractors, no, but it keeps everyone from bitching. Later, Greg H.

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burns

05-17-2001 08:28:01

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Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Greg H., 05-17-2001 06:18:16

Greg what is the decision when someone shows up asking if they can pull their XXX brand tractor that has larger tires mounted. Their arguement is that the tires are a factory option.

Oh ya, they have papers in their truck to prove their point. LOL

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Greg H.

05-17-2001 09:46:44

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-17-2001 08:28:01

They get to pull for "display only", and they arn't elegible for trophy, or cash. Or they can keep it on the trailer. I've only seen it happen once, and that was when a 1066 IH showed up to pull in the farm class with a set of 20.3???x38's, on the back. He pulled for display. There was probobly a reason why he had the 20 inch wide tires. The dude had so much power he pulled more like a prostocker than a farm tractor, and yanked the sled out the end of the track, spinning the whole way. Everybody that pulls on this county fair circuit knows the rules are the same from year to year in regards to tires, so incidents are few and far between. Yes it is unfair if your tractor came with a real wide tire from the factory, but it keeps everyone fairly equal. I'd have to guess that the rules probobly keep some of the old standard tread tractors from competing. Later Greg H.

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Augie

05-17-2001 09:26:39

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-17-2001 08:28:01

Our club has a 18.4x38 max tire size for all weight classes and all divisions. I suppose they could use the papers in their truck if they run out of Sears-n-Roebuck catalogs in the outhouse...

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Slo

05-17-2001 09:38:43

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Augie, 05-17-2001 09:26:39

Gonna put a set of them on Rozie and the Case? That way the tire would match the power...

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Augie

05-17-2001 19:39:44

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Slo, 05-17-2001 09:38:43

Sure why not? Think I could turn em in road gear?

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Gary

05-17-2001 09:19:23

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-17-2001 08:28:01

Why not pull all tractors at so called stock antique tractor pulls with the tires that they were tested with at the Nebraska tractor tests?
That's what the factories obviously thought they
would perform with the best and would only take a few seconds to look it up.Making all other tractors conform to JD and Farmall tire sizes can't hardly be called fair.

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Gary

05-16-2001 22:28:49

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Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-16-2001 19:50:27

Cockshutt 50 and 570 could be ordered from the factory with either 18X26 [now 23.1X26] on 18 inch
rims or 15X34 [now 18.4X34] on 16 inch rims, I do
have the documentation several times over and take
it to every pull I attend. These are not rice tires but normal tractor tires. You JD and Farmall
guys want stock pulls you say but not the stock
tire sizes because it isn't "fair", guess you define "fair" as anything you could get on a JD
or Farmall.Stock should certainly include orginal
tire size even if it does give an advantage. Why
try to keep up the illusion that the narrow tire
tractors [Farmall and JD] were equal to the wide
tire [Oliver and Cockshutt]?

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joe

05-20-2001 20:42:20

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Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-16-2001 22:28:49

yeah and I have documentaion from the cockshutt club that says the larger tires went on the standard version of the 50 not a row crop as well they had larger front tires so that they did not sit down in the front so bring a standard with the large front tires and pull noone will care however dont try and use them on a rowcrop

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pete

05-22-2001 08:40:56

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-20-2001 20:42:20

last time I checked, most factory manuals don't mention anything about how to run your tractor at a tractor pull either, SO EITHER pull the tractor & quit your whining about someone's tires who you can't beat even if he put 11.2x38's on it or stay home baby!!

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joe

05-22-2001 19:05:42

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to pete, 05-22-2001 08:40:56

actually pete for your info in our area I do not believe the cockshutt has won the class this year or last jd g's and and red m's have won the class

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Gary

05-21-2001 05:56:09

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-20-2001 20:42:20

After reading several other pieces of Literature
I would say you are probably correct to say the
the 18X26[23.1X26] tires were probably what was
"normal" equipment with a standard front end.I stand corrected,I can't imagine anyone wanting them on a rowcrop,although I did buy an 880 Oliver
in Swanquarter NC a few years back that came from
Oliver with 23.1X26 tires and an adjustable wide
front end,and no I'm not trying to pull it I parted it out.

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Gary

05-21-2001 04:38:42

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-20-2001 20:42:20

I have the orginal literature from Cockshutt and
you could order ANY combination you wanted as long
as you paid for it,even PTO,hydraulics,and belt
pulley were options that you paid extra for,same
as with the fenders, you could get the wheatland
fenders on any tractor you wanted.Also with 34"
tires you could only get a 14[16.9]or 15[18.4] at
the time these were being made.

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joe

05-22-2001 21:06:30

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-21-2001 04:38:42

Actually I have a cockshutt owners manual and copies of their oringinal sales liturature and it does not say that you can order in any combination or that you cannot so you have to be assuming you can. I have also researched JD A liturature and found were on the 1951 AN and AW models that you got 11-42's on them and it does not say that you could not get them on a row crop so I guess I could. Also an A could pull them in 1st in in 1951 with that low first. And guess what else to go one size over the next size they make now in a 42 now is 18.4 according to what I can find in the firestone book so I guess I can assume that I can run them on a Jd A if that is the line of thinking,but I'm sure you all know what assume means. All this is really not the point however we can debate all day long and both have valid arguments. The point is we want fair competition to all. At last pull I saw oliver 77's with 13'6 38s going down and picking on oliver 66's with much smaller tires how do you think that made them feel to know they were outtired in a class that was their wt class the 77's lightened up to get down there. And that is oliver picking on olivers . The whole concept is to be fair to everyone so it is fun for everyone because they have a chance. As much as I do not always agree with the natpa's rules their tire size rule makes alot of scence and if you (not meaning you specifically here gary but everyone)want to be fair the tire size rule which puts sq inches of the tires and equivilent inches in the same wt classes is fair to everyone concerned. As you can see all Jd's do not have to pull on bicycle tires as was stated earlier if we assume like you have to do from the cockshutt liturature. The real point is make the pulls fair for everyone and and stop assuming put in fair tire size rules so everyone can run an equivelent square inch tire in that specific wt class. As far as I can see the only people who wouldn't want to have these rules fair for everyone are the crybabies and boys who don't have enough gonads to be fair to everyone no matter what make they like or run JOE

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joe

05-22-2001 21:05:14

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-21-2001 04:38:42

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Gary

05-23-2001 04:15:54

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-22-2001 21:05:14

True antique pulls in my opinion match tractors as they were when they were built,that means as they came from the factory.This includes tires,
engines etc,but lets face it if all had to pull
that way the low horsepower to weight ratio tractors wouldn't do much.There are alot more JD
and Farmall owners than other brand owners so they
are able to set the rules to suit themselves but
don't get that mixed up with being "fair" its just
power politics plain and simple.Where do you pull,
if you haven't seen any Cockshutts win? I know of
several that win consistently.As far as NATPA
is concerned they aren't "national" and very small
percentage of the antique pullers across the country belong
to their group,so I question their rules as having
"national" consquences.

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joe

05-23-2001 20:28:45

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-23-2001 04:15:54

I will agree with you on the being fair part . Unfortunately you are right in most places the rules have been set for a while and by older pullers who do not want to change them. However I do disagree on one subject . You have made mention of wt to hp ratio a good bit. Well lets be honest here . The manufacters had different ideas were that is concerned and they were made for farming not tractor pulling they could have cared less about tractor pulling in the 50's . In my idea fairness would be pulling competing models against each other and letting them them wt what they will. Or let the lightwts wt. up correct me if I am wrong here But when these tractors we made these were the competing tractors and they went by how many row ploys they could pull or were recommended to pull . In grouping them cockshutt 50 Jd G and in 53 Jd 70 farmall super M or Mta and Oliver 88 were the equivilent tractors , cockshutt 40, Jd A , farmall m , oliver 77 were equivilent tractors cockshutt 30, Jd B , OLIVER 66 , farmall h were equivilent tractors. So if we want to follow factory everything let's pull tractors that the manufacters intended for them to compete against in their day. I fear you really would not like that arrangement either even though that's what our respective manufacters intended them to compete against when they made them. Cockshutt and oliver did not compare 50's and 88's with an a they compared it with G till 53 then a 70 and by the way a 50 is rated 50 hp and so forth so lets pull against what the manufactures wanted them to compete against and run pure factory . ALSO in the Deere line Hp ratings were decieving as we all know pulling is about torque not hp and deere had a gain in torgue to hp ratio over the other manufacters. In addition to all that one other area that many do not realize or check into is that with the inline gears that jd had there was a gain of hp to the ground. As all the manufacters of that day admitted there was somewhere between a 20% and 30% loss of hp threw the pinion in the rearend the 20% to 30% come from the difference in what each mftr. said . So use that on say an Jd A listed at 38hp in 51 and a oliver 77 48hp in 51 and a farmall m at 41hp in 51 well take off the min 20% they say a pinion loses to the wheels well all the sudden the jd still has 38 the O 77 has 38.4 and the m has 32.8 to the ground and if it actually goes to 30 % wow then look at it. All the sudden HP to the ground is very close.over some the JD may even have an advantage there. I know you will probably say this is bunk but I have done alot of research to get this info. I never understood why when we had a farmall super h and a JD B on our farm the B would pull things the h wouldn't touch actually unhooked h and hooked b to a couple things were h died or spun b pulled it rt out without much effort and before someone comments h was wt'ed and 50lbs heavier and both had same size new tires on them at the time. I will admit JD is my favorite brand but my second choice would be a cockshutt or minn moline I think they are both neat tractors. So please don't say I am not trying to be realistic here but there is much more to it than wt to hp ratio. Farmall boys in all scenerio's they lose here but take heart you were the #1 selling tractor then for a reason even though I can't see it. Another thing by the way let's look at why Jd's are heavier could it be that they had real hydralics on them make them a flat back and they lose about 500 to 600 lbs. Well this is enough said bottom line have fun pulling whatever brand you like and realize if everyone liked the same thing this page would be very boring so have fun with it but try and look at it from all perspectives Take Care All Joe

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Gary

05-24-2001 04:05:32

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-23-2001 20:28:45

You are going to have to make up your mind,at first you cry the classic Deere cry always heard
thoughout the land "we don't have as much horsepower as other tractors" [blame JD for a poor
design]but then you turn around and say the JD has more pulling power which is it? I've run bone
stock JD A and a bone stock Oliver 77 in almost anything the Oliver will outdo the JD. Is there a
stock A left anywhere? I haven't seen one in years.

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joe

05-24-2001 16:32:37

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-24-2001 04:05:32

I think you need to read again what I have said I have never cried that JD does not have the horsepower of other tractors. It is interesting that you have to change what is said to even talk about it. I can only guess you don't have anything legitamate to respond with but had to change it around. As far HP as stock A's I PULLED ONE FOR 3 YRS AT EXACTLY 38 HP AND WON 5 OF 10 PULLS THAT YR. Now however I cannot claim that I have done the big no no of having a head workrd and getting the compression up. As far as a 77 outperforming an A pulling hasn't and never will happen on pulling in a farm situation pto machinery is another story I would give the oliver an edge there. This is the last I will post on this subject as I have tried to be realistic and objective in what I have written but it is obvious with the crying comment and saying I said something that I never said you cannot be realistic or objective So this is the last post I will make on the subject. Joe

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Burns

05-24-2001 03:15:26

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-23-2001 20:28:45

There is a show at Penn's Cave near Center Hall, Pa. The have a "fun" pull that groups the tractors based on size like you mentioned Joe

By the way, it is a nice show for those who are in the general area.

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joe

05-23-2001 20:52:59

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-23-2001 20:28:45

actully few typo's there meant jd 70 was rated at 50 hp and 3 row plows not ploys

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joe

05-23-2001 20:30:31

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to joe, 05-23-2001 20:28:45

actully few typo's there meant jd 70 was rated at 50 hp and 3 row plows not ploys

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G Taylor , not a fan of NATPA but ...............

05-23-2001 07:49:58

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-23-2001 04:15:54

While not being thrilled about some of NATPA'a politics the Class I tire rules does "even the playing field" and puts an end to arguing over " what was stock tire size avalable". A National set of rules would be a good idea but chances are slim, at least by looking at the last presidential election.

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burns

05-17-2001 03:06:09

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Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-16-2001 22:28:49

I think you are smart enough Gary to realize I mentioned the brand only because I knew you would certainly have an opinion. Besides, how come I and almost every puller I know do not need to carry around "documentation" in our trucks. Is it because someone is reading into the rules differently. The rule at that pull was simple. No tires larger than 15.5..... .But I have documentation in my truck that says my tractor could of been ordered this way!! NO NO NO NO NO. His tractor was the same as my buddies JD A with 16.9's and a farmall MTA with 18.4's. I think back now and I think the reason he left was because someone was going to place is documentation in another location.....ouch!

First I think you have misunderstood my thoughts. I am talking about not allowing the "could of been ordered with" tires from the stock class.

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Gary

05-18-2001 12:41:39

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-17-2001 03:06:09

Its ironic that someone would come up with 15.5
to be the max. tire size since that particular size didn't exist until after most antique tractors were built and is only a 38" tire size
why not 14.9[old 13] or 16.9[old 14]? Or is this just another way to give tractors with 38" rears another "edge"?

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burns

05-18-2001 14:51:23

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-18-2001 12:41:39

There is nothing ironic about the tire size limit, because tire size is direct relationship to workable hp. As you are well aware, each tractor regardless of stock or modified, has a maximum tire width it can handle for power when pulling. To much tire and not enough power makes for a long day at the pulls. I can mount a set of 18.4x38 Firestone R/F on widened 18" rims on our 48 JD BN. This BN is 100% original making 19 hp. I wouldn't be able to pull a transfer sled. So why have a tire size limit? What size tractor/engine is needed to successfully pull a sled COMPETITIVELY when equipped with 18.4s that I mentioned before, could a Stock Farmall M, Stock John Deere G, Stock Oliver Super 88. I think it would be doubtful. Could they pull a sled with 15.5's easier, sure. I am having a hard time putting this into words but it boils down to this. If you have the power to handle a tire bigger than a 15.5 go to a different class other than stock. If you have the power but go with a small tire then you had better be a good driver to be able harness the power to the ground.

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Gary

05-18-2001 15:41:17

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-18-2001 14:51:23

You won't get any arguement from me that most old
Farmalls and Deeres were underpowered for their
size but there are alot of tractors that weren't
also maxium tire width does not account for 34",
30", and 28" an 18.4X34 takes about the same power
to turn as a 15.5X38,problem lots of tractors that
had 18.4 X34 orginally can't easily change to 38"
Oliver 99 and MH 55 are good examples.Also to say
if you have more power than a stock Farmall or JD
you belong in the mod class is a joke because almost all other tractors have more power stock.

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burns

05-18-2001 21:00:03

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-18-2001 15:41:17

While I can agree that there are tractors that stock to stock have a higher base hp rating than a Farmall M or JD G, just be sure to compare apples with apples when referencing tire size with hp ratings. Comparing a Oliver 99 to a Farmall M is like comparing a Farmall M with a Farmall B.

We can go on and on with this discussion but my position is simple. Each row crop tractor should not be able to mount a set of "factory option" size tires regardless of the persons documentation. Yes a wide 34 may be comparable with hp required for a 38 but it provides a bigger footprint, too. Now as far as your shorter/wider tires found on many stardards, I guess I am wrong with my orginal position of not permitting the tires. (Yes, I am man enough to admit my errors) However, I don't favor someone bending the rules to upgrade from a 32' or 34" moving up to a 38" tire with maintaining the factor width. This also means that if this bigger tire was in the form of a rice tire, for example, well then that tire better be that style. A factory rice tire doesn't mean that you can run a 23 degree bar like a Firestone.

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Gary

05-19-2001 01:20:49

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-18-2001 21:00:03

Guess what there weren't any 23 degree angle tires
when Farmall M's were built so I guess they wouldn't be able to run them now, Right?By the way
getting back to the guy with the Cockshutt my orginal sales literature from Cockshutt lists the tire options as 14X34[16.9X34],15X34[18.4X34],
18X26[23.1X26]Rice tires AND 18X26[23.1X26]Sure
Grip Tires[for those of you that were crawling
around in messy diapers later than the late 50's
and early 60's that's a regular tractor tire.
I can verify this information from any number of
sources if necessary.

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burns

05-19-2001 06:29:41

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-19-2001 01:20:49

Hey Gary did the Cockshutt 50 have any optional engines. I talking with the owner of our sled last night. It turns out this guy doesn't have the correct motor. I can't confirm this with any types of specs but I guess this guy showed up at the wrong pull where somebody knew what he had wasn't OEM and it resulted in a big DQ. All I know was that he has a diesel with the govenor spring wired together pushing about 4000 rpms. Terrible part to this whole thing is that it is darn good looking tractor.

And to think some guys try to make money pulling while having this much fun. Go figure and have a nice day.

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Allen P.

05-20-2001 03:27:50

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-19-2001 06:29:41

Did they disqualify him because of the wrong engine or the high rpm? If it was the engine, then I am really sorry for all the JD pullers they probaly must have thrown out for running a non-oem engine, i.e. a TSC power block. After all fair is fair right?

Regarding tires, in a stock/out of the field class ou should be able to run what ever size tire could have been ordred for your make and model. No cut tires though as you do not use them in the field. The only reason to have another specification is in the case of tractors which never were available with rubber tires at any time during their production run. I mean what does anyone have to be afraid of? After all, they are to big and will not bite.

For a modified class set whatever tire restrictions/specifications you want.

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Gary

05-20-2001 04:16:30

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Allen P., 05-20-2001 03:27:50

Haven't you heard John Deere tractors are the only
ones that can run aftermarket engines.They are the
spoiled brats of the antique pulling "family".

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pete

05-22-2001 08:44:51

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Gary, 05-20-2001 04:16:30

HOW TRUE!! Almost every JD puller is a whining baby (especially unstyled JD G pullers)..putt,putt,bang,putt,putt,whoof,putt,putt..... ...

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G Taylor from a weenie who won't post his address

05-23-2001 07:54:35

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to pete, 05-22-2001 08:44:51

So when you are not hidding behind a fake address, are you are hidding behind your mothers skirts. How do you expect to be taken seriously. Just as the Harleys are loved/hated/copied so are Deere's. Just the price to pay for being at the top.

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Mike

05-18-2001 07:30:20

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-17-2001 03:06:09

Well I have 2 G's w/ 20.8 34's on 23" wheels.So when anyone questions one tractor I point at the other say that one is the same, must have been a "dealer" option. Seriously, when I "cheat" I do it plain site (95% of the time) I don't hide much. I'd be more concerned over what people are hiding than what you can look at.Remember- this is sposed ta be fun- beat the tractors ya should beat; steal a couple places ya shouldn't; look what other tractors are running and go home and try to get more competitive for next time

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Deerepower

05-18-2001 04:43:27

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Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to burns, 05-17-2001 03:06:09

Someone needs to let Gary out pull their JD so he will stop crying.

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Gary

05-18-2001 07:35:05

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What do you call factory tires? in reply to Deerepower, 05-18-2001 04:43:27

why don't you try me with some of that junk you own?

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